4ad-l Mail for 11-12-1995

Mail in Archive

Subject: Re: shiFt!
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 23:40:21 -0500
From: mark (mfb@WAM.UMD.EDU)
Subject: mistle thrush in pittsburgh
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:11:15 -0500
From: TS61822@AOL.COM
Subject: lovesliescrushing interview up on Web
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 02:05:07 -0500
From: Brendon Macaraeg (bqm1808@IS.NYU.EDU)
Subject: Re: a Shelleyan error
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 23:28:04 -0800
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: a new debate?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 03:11:17 -0500
From: TS61822@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: a new debate?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:02:48 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re. this being a 4AD list...
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:19:28 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: 4AD - Best year.
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:27:45 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: Re: Richenel
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:58:53 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:21:56 -0500
From: "nougat: the other n-word" (larry@INTERLOG.COM)
Subject: Re: (like me)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:38:53 -0500
From: Jared Goldman (Moonstar9@AOL.COM)
Subject: 4AD - 4th mortal coil
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:29:52 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: 4AD - Re CZ - Martin McC.
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:48:35 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: Re: Re. this being a 4AD list...
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:12:50 CST
From: eric (eewittme@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: The Holy single
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 20:25:38 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: 4AD - subject headings
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:19:10 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: Re: Skylab
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:28:08 -0500
From: Jared Goldman (Moonstar9@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: a Shelleyan error
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:27:23 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: Re: a new debate?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:27:26 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: einexile, the great name caller
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:13:50 -0800
From: Ryan (ryan@LEONARDO.NET)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:03:56 -0800
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4AD - Best year/Richenel
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 23:03:22 +0100
From: Frank Brinkhuis (brink2@XS4ALL.NL)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:08:20 -0500
From: SortSol@AOL.COM
Subject: 4AD: Those who've gone off to make crap and TMC relatives
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:55:47 -0500
From: Roy Burns (RBNRy@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: 4AD - 4th mortal coil
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:30:02 +0100
From: Frank Brinkhuis (brink2@XS4ALL.NL)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:19:31 -0700
From: Russell Martin (russellm@XMISSION.COM)
Subject: name calling
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:30:40 -0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:44:00 -0800
From: snowangel k-j (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4AD - subject headings
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:28:37 -0600
From: Martin Wagner (hepcats@EDEN.COM)
Subject: Mere comment on the 4ad/not 4ad, no actual 4ad content, sorry
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:03:09 -0600
From: Sung Shim (foss@STARNETINC.COM)
Subject: let's all go on grudge match! ..plus, anuddah proposal
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:17:00 -0800
From: snowangel k-j (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:05:55 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Free: Song..sounds like Dif Juz
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:16:57 -0800
From: mvs (mvs@WCO.COM)
Subject: blessed are the netpolitzei
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:32:42 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:50:28 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Addition for EYESORE
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:41:54 -0500
From: Alex Wolfson (ajw6@COLUMBIA.EDU)
Subject: the body shop cd
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:44:33 -0800
From: Peter Repetti (repetti@NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: Re: name calling
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:11:26 -0500
From: Steven Venn (svenn@INFORAMP.NET)
Subject: Re: let's all go on grudge match! ..plus, anuddah proposal
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:11:28 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:00:33 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: a new debate?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:20:38 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:16:35 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:31:20 -0800
From: Heffalump (n9344881@FOZZIE.CC.WWU.EDU)
Subject: Re: blessed are the netpolitzei
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:50:40 -0500
From: Steven Venn (svenn@INFORAMP.NET)
Subject: Aren't opinions funny?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:56:06 -0800
From: bmilner (bmilner@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: the body shop cd
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:13:36 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Mark K. / Caroline Records (Idaho) / Bettie Seveer
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:06:09 -0800
From: Jens Alfke (jens@MOOSEYARD.COM)
Subject: Re: Aren't opinions funny?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:29:36 -0800
From: "Elvia M. Tarango" (elvia@UCLINK3.BERKELEY.EDU)

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 23:40:21 -0500
From: mark (mfb@WAM.UMD.EDU)
Subject: Re: shiFt!


i agree! Marc sent us the cd here at WMUC raydeeoh.
it is QUITE nice! they are obviously influenced by
MBV and other such bands, but they have developed
their own unique sound... very moving and beautiful
to behold..  unfortunately only six songs./

--mark

>   Hello everyone.  Just dropping in to tell y'all about the best damn
> record I've got in a long time.  It's shiFt's "A folding Sieve".  It is
> incredible.  Marc, the head guy in the band, sent it to me as a b-side to
> a dub of mbv's Ecstasy and wine.  I have been doint nothing but rewinding
> and playing that side of the tape with shiFt on it.  Forget Ride, forget
> lush or anything else.  If you like MBV, this is a must-have for your
> collection.  For me, it was like being in the desert, when it's really
> hot, and you can see the waves of arid heat ascending from the ground.
> ANd then I ran across the soil, disturbing the patterns of air.  The air
> swirled around and a dustdevil rose up behind me, a great twisting mass
> of air and noise and vibration eating everything up in it's path.  It is
> quite an incredible experience.  shiFt's music is just like this.
> Grinding guitars mashing over a humming synth in perfect accompaniment.
> I would look for shiFt to become the next big thing.  Get this cd!  It is
> available (you know a plug was coming, didn't you?) from:ND Records,
> P.O.Box 4144, Austin Texas 78765 USA.  Get it!
>
> ******************************************************************************
>
>                                    A.I.D.S.
>               We are all infected because we are all affected.........
>
>                                   *********
>                      Will Coucheron-Aamot a.k.a. soon@unm.edu
>   MBV, medicine, seefeel, flying saucer attack, slowdive, lovesliescrushing
> ******************************************************************************
>
>
>


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:11:15 -0500
From: TS61822@AOL.COM
Subject: mistle thrush in pittsburgh


well just back from the MT show here in pgh. they played to a packed house of
50 or so all decked out in their best goth garb. they acositcs were not the
greaest in the gallery we were in but the did a nice set of 9 songs or so.
see them if you can

i would have stuck around to see lycia play (since i like them) however the
middle act was some guy with a synth from chicago who calls himself "the
vampire nation" he was so terribly out of tune and so full of bad feedback
that we and many others left early.

anyone know anything about "vampire nation"? i think part of the problem was
the sound guy was giving him a hard time and his set up/sound check before he
played lasted about 2 minutes.

todd sanders-  dcd scribe


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 02:05:07 -0500
From: Brendon Macaraeg (bqm1808@IS.NYU.EDU)
Subject: lovesliescrushing interview up on Web


Hey there:

Well, finally, I have the lovesliescrushing interview up on the web.

Please check it out. There are WAV and AIFF sound files to download
if you have never heard the band before (as well you should!).

The URL is:


This is part of my zine Dreampop...

the main URL is:

For those of you who have seen my zine before, I've totally
redesigned the graphics. I'd be curious to hear from other
web designers on these lists what they think....

Lateroo,
-B

P.S. I am working still on making the David Bowie review
CDLink friendly, but not til tomorrow sometime....tired now *yawn*.

=====================================================
                                        Brendon Macaraeg
                      http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~brendonm
             "Paranoia is often an extreme hightened awareness"

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 23:28:04 -0800
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Re: a Shelleyan error


> Thanks to everyone for the good info on Shelleyan Orphan.  Now that I've
> heard some responses, though, I was wondering if it's possible to get ahold
> of any of those videos.

I'll check my sources at Rough Trade and/or Columbia. I was supposed
to get a copy of "Burst" ages ago.

>  Also, does anyone know if they are still together,
> or if they are planning on releasing anything in the future?

They broke up a few years ago (*sniff*). Then Ms. Crawley
made an appearance at the 13 Year Itch with some Cure members
(she's rumored to be involved with Boris) as the band Ether.
Nothing ever came of that, despite Ivo's supposed interest.


|     Brant Nelson | 1817 Corinth Ave. #10 | open your eyes
| Dewdrops Records | LA, CA 90025-5567     | to northern skies
| Uncommon music that deserves to be heard |
| http://www.astro.ucla.edu/students/nelson/dewdrops.html


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 03:11:17 -0500
From: TS61822@AOL.COM
Subject: a new debate?


with all the talk recently about the decline of 4ad and successive discussion
about that there is nothing that interesting going on 4ad wise right now and
so thats why we talk about other groups, i pose the following question for a
debate

what was 4ad's best year in music and why.



any takers? debate away....


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:02:48 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: a new debate?


On Sun, 12 Nov 1995 TS61822@AOL.COM wrote:

> with all the talk recently about the decline of 4ad and successive discussion
> about that there is nothing that interesting going on 4ad wise right now and
> so thats why we talk about other groups, i pose the following question for a
> debate

I personally don't see such a dark future ahead. 4AD has dropped a lot of
bands that were good but which were arguably stale, and generally their
actions which have seemed insane at the time have turned out to be fairly
sound.

We have Mojave, we have the genius that is Paula, we have Kim Deal having
fun and going somewhere off the deep end, and everyone knows she's
playing around and living it up and I don't see why The Amps are such a
thorn to some people. Kristen Hersh is on a serious upswing and I am real
excited about what she's been doing. Lisa Gerrard has done her first good
work in six years and ended up with a monster album. Liqourice and Air
Miami are two of the only pop bands doing anything original these days,
Lush are STILL the fucking SHIT, Lisa Germano is a genius, and Kendra
Smith may not be a great songwriter but she created a very unique
atmosphere on her album which I am delighted about. So count me as one
who is sick of this constant 4AD bashing by people who a year or two
from now will still be talking about the 'fall of 4AD'--gee, fall from
what? You didn't like them two years ago either!

> what was 4ad's best year in music and why.

1986, 1993, 1983, 1981, 1989.

Medusa, Throwing Muses, Spleen and Ideal, TWP singles, Spoonfed, Insides,
etc, The Burden of Mules, Cocteau eps, Garlands, Lush, Pale Saints, etc...

e


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:19:28 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: Re. this being a 4AD list...


Okay,okay. Calm down, calm down.

There seems to be two distict groups of people here - those who want this
to be just a 4AD list, and those who want it to be Thislisty (or whatever).
I'm not going to pretend to be independent here - if you've read my
postings it's pretty obvious what my stance is, but yes we all
can/should/will use our delete keys if something doesn't interest us BUT
how do we know without wading through the whole lot?

I suggest, being the sensible person I am, that everyone puts at the front
of their subject either < 4AD - Re. blah blah blah > or < Thislisty - Re.
blah blah blah > and just keep to those two (and no more) starting points.
Easy eh? Then no-one has to get pissed off with opening a load of mail
about non-4AD stuff, but if they or anyone else does want to/get time to
read all the other stuff they can. Seems simple to me.

Ah, some smart alec says, what about if I want to talk about something in
both topics? <=oI Why don't you make two postings? Clever or what?

I'm going to start the ball rolling...

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:27:45 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: 4AD - Best year.


Works doesn't it!


For me the best year has got to be 1986:

        The very 4AD _ L'escalve Endormi _ by Richenel, was released in
January.

One of my French friends (how cosmipolitan I am) said that Monsieur
Richenel is/was half French half English, and was somehow related to one of
the Stranglers (I think). Is this true? I heard a really bad Euro-Pop
single of his on a jukebox in the South of France, but has he done anything
else worthwhile?


        The Cocteaus released _Victorialand_ in Feb.

Not their best, but any Twins album release before _Heaven or Las Vegas_
was something to shout about. So I shouted in 1990 for the aforementioned
album - until it came out and I listened to it...


        Colourbox released their last (as yet) on 4AD.

Not that that's anything to be pleased about, but be thankful for the last
two releases they made - especially since one meant we actually got into
the World Cup finals.


        The Throwing Muses were signed and released in September.

Hmmm. Not a great Muses fan, but they opened the way for Ivo to sign
American acts, and where would 4AD be/have been without The Pixies, The Red
House Painters, Belly (I like them), His Name is Alive... The list goes on.


        Cocteau Twins release _Love's Easy Tears_ too, again in September.

One of their best EPs? Got to be. Sexy sleeve too.


        A prolific year for the Twins actaully. The coke must have been good
                that year. With Harold Budd they released _The Moon and the
                Melodies_ in November.

Lovely album. Another big hit for Mssrs. Oliver and Grierson too. What a
great idea to team up with Mr Budd. Led me onto my favourite chill out
album of all time - Lovely Thunder. Oh, if only the CTs had gone on this
way (perhaps we wouldn't have got _Blue Bell Knoll_ but it would have been
worth it).


        Dif Juz!!!!! The band. _Out of the Trees_ was released in November too.

Brilliant sleeve. Brilliant music. Why did they have to dissappear? Why did
one of my friends have to knock tea over the sleeve of the only copy I've
ever seen? _Gunet_ is probably my all time favourite instrumental track
ever. It's in the top ten of my favourite songs ever actually. Yes, Iknow,
before anyone points it out, that it wasn't actaully released for the first
time this year. But what a great idea rereleasing two EPs that are rarer
than a French steak on the same album. Good on you Ivo.


        Xymox released _Medusa_.

This was also their last. Okay it wasn't but it was, if you know what I
mean. Who led Ronny astray?


        THIS MORTAL COIL RELEASED _FILIGREE AND SHADOW_ (and the 10" of _Drugs_)

September too. The best album EVER. Full stop. Period - whatever. There can
be only one and this is it. Definately.
>From the soothing strings of Martin McCarrick (why did they never give this
man his own album? He's exceedingly talented (listen to _Strings_ by Hersh,
or see Siouxsie live - my first concert experience), and I've heard no-one
else play a mean cello as well as him. To the lispy lushousness of Dominic
Appleton's voice . Yum yum. It has everyone from Dif Juz to The Wolfgang
Press, Cocteau Twins to Colourbox on it. I cannot imagine anyone else apart
from Ivo coming up with such a combination which looks like an apalling
mis-mash on paper, but sounds so astonishing.
The sleeve was outstanding too. The Lumiere Brothers autochrome sitting
regally in the heart of the monochromeness (?). If anyone has, or knows
where to get a poster of this album I would kill for it. Please mail me
NOW!


And that was the year that was. I know _Blood_ was good, but not that good.
Please Ivo, reform TMC. I propose another topic of conversation (since all
those people reckon there's nothing to talk about) - who (mainly on 4AD
thank you - I'll give in to those already recorded on TMC songs) would you
throw together to rerecord which 4AD all-time great tracks?

Andie


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:58:53 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: Re: Richenel


...One of my French friends (how cosmipolitan I am) said that Monsieur
...Richenel is/was half French half English, and was somehow related to one of
...the Stranglers (I think). Is this true? I heard a really bad Euro-Pop
...single of his on a jukebox in the South of France, but has he done anything
...else worthwhile?


Richenel is a guy from the Netherlands (one of the three Dutch ex-artists
on 4AD - the other two: Xymox and Bettie Serveert)  and the last thing I
have heard from him was some crap disco record, very populair in Italy and
Spain. I don't know what he's doing now but I hope he has quit making
records.

Xymox also makes crap these days aren't they? What's wrong with these Dutch
people...
and Bettie Serveert left to another label.






   Emiel Efdee

-
   efdee@luna.nl (the netherlands)
-
   http://www.luna.nl/~efdee
-

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:21:56 -0500
From: "nougat: the other n-word" (larry@INTERLOG.COM)
Subject: 4-ad list or not?


>> I'm into plenty of other musics non-4AD, including the Swirlies, but I'd
>> rather not read about that stuff on this list (this-listy or not). I'm sure
>> I'm not alone.
>
>  if you read the welcome and faq, you'd know that the discussion on this
>  list encompasses "thislisty" music as well, which is a broad and
>  general term. you want strictly 4ad talk and nothing but 4ad talk,
>  start yer own list

k-j is right...you could call it purist4ad-l or something. This is the whole
reason the term "thislisty" exists: to describe music that might conceivably
'fit' on 4ad or that is reasonably similar to something, *anything* on 4ad
(let's not forget that 4ad has released music in a wide variety of styles).
To accept the stuff that's not strictly 4ad and just hit 'delete' when you
see something non-4ad (would that include non-4ad stuff you like?) or scroll
past it (in the digest version) seems a lot more realistic than to expect
the list to confine itself to 4ad only. Otherwise, we'd have to start
another list called notquite4ad-l or something, and then where would we be?

Larry

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:38:53 -0500
From: Jared Goldman (Moonstar9@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: (like me)


actually seefeels latest was called seefeel vs scorn.  i guess they are
friends.


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:29:52 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: 4AD - 4th mortal coil


        andrew m. says:
> I propose another topic of conversation (since all
>those people reckon there's nothing to talk about) - who (mainly on 4AD
>thank you - I'll give in to those already recorded on TMC songs) would you
>throw together to rerecord which 4AD all-time great tracks?

4th Mortal Coil line-up:  dierdre rutkowski, martin mccarric, lisa gerrard,
brendan perry, dominic appleton, warren defever, karin oliver, caroline
crawley, ian masters.

and not previously on any 4AD recording:  since there's no way ivo would be
able to get Liz and Robin back, i'd ask Suzanne Perry and Ryan Lum (that's
right! from Love Spirals Downwards).  Also:  Stina Nordenstam, Anneli
Drecker(Bel Canto), Henry Frayne and Lynn Canfield (Moon Seven Times),
Preston Klik(Big Hat), Bill Laswell, and Zakir Hussain on Tabla for some
songs (why the heck not?)

The songs, of course, would have to be drastically different from the
originals so there aren't too many 4AD songs here 'cuz i'd want to keep
them very similar.
Here are some songs that i think would lend themselves nicely to cover
versions by TMC:

4th of July  (Galaxy 500):  caroline crawley starts in her most whimsical
voice "I wrote a poem ...  on a dog biscut ... but the dog refused to look
at it"   Henry frayne chimes in on light guitars and martin with strings.

Upon 9th and Fairchild (Boo Radleys): definitely warren (w/ ian masters???)

9th and Hennepin (Tom Waits):  The longest most haunting version....  Stina
Nordenstam on vocals, Lisa Gerrard on Yang Ch'in, Brendan Perry too.

Waiting for Tomorrow (all of my life) (The The):  Zakir Hussain replaces
the drum machine with real Tabla rhythm, Anneli Drecker (of Bel Canto)
sings w/ her quirkiest voice.

Untiedundone (Creatures):  Dierdre Rutkowski on vocals, warren defever, and
Preson Klik doing a haunting jazz-style version (ala You Lied by Big Hat
but with Rutkowskilicious vocals).

Newspapers (Stan Ridgeway):  using warren, bill laswell, and zakir hussain.
Who on vocals?

This is the Sea (Waterboys):  Brendan Perry on vocals.

Wheel of the Law (Kendra Smith):  ian masters duet w/ lynn canfield, henry
frayne on guitars.

Elephant Song (Syd Barrett):  warren and caroline crawley.

Now for some 4AD covers:

Pump up the Volume:  this is 4AD's chance to make amends for this song and
give a chance to LSD because if they can pull this off well they deserve
Ivo's full-blown support.   Suzanne Perry does her best to mask the vocals
into an indecipherable blur (i don't care how the rest of the song is
done).

Wax and Wane:  Anneli Drecker AND Suzanne Perry.  Less cheesy drums.

something of the s/t DCD album:  um, why not let Lisa and Brendan redo
this--they could do a much better job now but add in Martin McCarrick
strings to make it more TMCish and different enough from DCD.

That's a long enough album but i'd like to work in a velvet underground
song and an opal song too (from early recordings).

-cz

___<<<<<<<<<*********ckemnitz@students.wisc.edu********>>>>>>>>>___

"Like a diaphanous nightgown, language both hides and reveals.  There is no
way of getting at the naked truth, even if it's wearing the Emperor's New
Clothes, or the Empress's New Clothos.  We follow our Mother Tongue into
her boudoir, anyway, hoping for a glimpse of something never yet beheld-and
come face to face with our own reflections in her most private mirror,
veiled meanings in a gossamer heap on the floor."     -Karen Elizabeth
Gordon

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:48:35 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: 4AD - Re CZ - Martin McC.


Wasn't he on st DCD anyway? Or was it the second album - I haven't got them
so I can't look it up. His name was misspelt Martin McGarrick...


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:12:50 CST
From: eric (eewittme@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: Re. this being a 4AD list...


In Message Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:19:28 -0500,
  Andrew Massey  writes:

>I suggest, being the sensible person I am, that everyone puts at the front
>of their subject either < 4AD - Re. blah blah blah > or < Thislisty - Re.
>blah blah blah > and just keep to those two (and no more) starting points.
>Easy eh? Then no-one has to get pissed off with opening a load of mail
>about non-4AD stuff, but if they or anyone else does want to/get time to
>read all the other stuff they can. Seems simple to me.

hey. this is a really lame idea.  if the subject is "swirlies," then it's
obviously not 4ad-related.  and what about spin-offs like, princess
dragon-mom (warren defaver, a 4ad artist), esp summer (warren and ian
masters, both (?) 4ad artists), cocteau twins post 4ad, etc. etc.)  this
"new system" really accomplishes nothing you couldn't figure out by reading
the subject heading.

eric

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 20:25:38 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: Re: The Holy single


...Okay. What does anyone think of K. Hersh's The Holy single?

I think it's the best record 4AD released in years. She has done it again!
I like the third song on the e.p. the most but what's she singing at the
end during the fade-out?? I hope she releases an Holy album and goes on a
Holy tour. It's also the best artwork I've seen in ages, wow, the boys at
v23 are amazing... I'll quit my job as a graphic designer because this is
too much!
I saw the video the other night. A great video! But who's the bloke on her back?
I think 1995 is the best 4AD year in the history, only because of this
e.p., If I had to go the moon and could only take one item with me... I'
will be this single. Kristin rules! Even my grantmother likes her!
4AD should get rid of every act they have signed and only release records
made by Kristin.
She is like a... blah blah blah etc. etc.

There is only one problem...  I have never heard the thing, it isn't out
yet in Europe...
I'm still waiting... maby next week I can give a real opinion...

Is it any good? Is there a video? What are the tracks?

Emiel (who must have been very bored when he wrote this message)

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:19:10 -0500
From: Andrew Massey (andie@AMASS.DEMON.CO.UK)
Subject: 4AD - subject headings


>hey. this is a really lame idea.  if the subject is "swirlies," then it's
>obviously not 4ad-related.  and what about spin-offs like, princess
>dragon-mom (warren defaver, a 4ad artist), esp summer (warren and ian
>masters, both (?) 4ad artists), cocteau twins post 4ad, etc. etc.)  this
>"new system" really accomplishes nothing you couldn't figure out by reading
>the subject heading.

Thanks Eric.

Perhaps if people kept to what their subject heading says and cut their
posts into more than one mail if it's related to more than one thing then
we'd be okay. But they don't. And the point is that some people subscribed
are (for some really obscure reason) just here for the 4AD stuff, and this
idea, I thought, might help us all out since a lot of people think the
listing is getting cluttered up with useless stuff about Project or
whatever else seems to be the topic hardly related to 4AD for the month.

There seems to be a problem with people not being bothered to read
everything that's posted (no doubt coz so much crap is posted) and then
asking stooopid questions about what's already been discussed. This might
stop. Isn't it worth a try? God, all you have to do is put one number and
two letters before your subject - is this too much to ask?

I would have thought most people here were particularly interested in 4AD
stuff, so surely most people just want to read about that and be able to
bin the other stuff without fear of loosing anything - I don't have enough
time to read everything posted, and someone else said something similar. If
I do have lots of time then I could read the other stuff too.

Why not try it? If we need a <4ad related - re. blah> as well then okay. I
don't care if people want to post other stuff about non-4ad bands - hey
Autechre sounds interseting and I'm going to look them up, but we are
generally getting a lot of mail everyday (although today seems to have been
quiet) and I thought this might help.

Andie

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:28:08 -0500
From: Jared Goldman (Moonstar9@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: Skylab


skylab are amazing.  they have some other stuff out in the uk but the release
here is mighty good....i think it's called #1.  you should also check out
"u-ziq"  he remixed an auteus album and i was really good (i don't even like
the auteurs that much).  he also has some other releases in the uk but the
u-ziq vs the auteurs album is really good and so is his new one.
jared

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:27:23 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: Re: a Shelleyan error


...They broke up a few years ago (*sniff*). Then Ms. Crawley
...made an appearance at the 13 Year Itch with some Cure members
...(she's rumored to be involved with Boris) as the band Ether.
...Nothing ever came of that, despite Ivo's supposed interest.


Shelleyan Orphan was the supporting act on one of the Cure's European tours
some years ago. That's also the only time I have seen them live. I loved
it,  but they got boo-ed and some (a lot) members in the audience were
throwing stuff at them... and she got a very big (positive) reaction from
them when she said something like "This is our last song..." So that must
be the reason Boris got involved with her...

What was 'Ether' like, which cure members were in it? Who's Ivo?

Emiel


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:27:26 +0200
From: Emiel Efdee (efdee@LUNA.NL)
Subject: Re: a new debate?


...what was 4ad's best year in music and why.


...what was 4ad's best year in music and why.

1982, because this was the year I bought 'Garlands' and read the letters
'4' 'A' 'D' in that order.

I can't pick a 'best year' but her are the records I think were the best
ones in a year:

1982  Garlands
1983  Song To The Siren / Head Over Heels
1984  It'll End In Tears / Treasure
1985  Spleen And Ideal
1986  Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares / Spleen And Ideal
1987  Within The Realm Of A Dying Sun
1988  Surfer Rosa / The Serpent's Egg
1989  Doolittle
1990  Pod / Bossanova
1991  Blood / 10 Disc CD Collection
1992  Slow Dust / Red Heaven / Down Colourful Hill
1993  Star / The 13-Year Itch
1994  Hips And Makers / Desire Lines / Geek The Girl
1995  The Mirror Pool / Gentle Creatures
1996  Brandan Perry?

Emiel

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:13:50 -0800
From: Ryan (ryan@LEONARDO.NET)
Subject: einexile, the great name caller


First e has to call BluBel a "stupid AOLer".

Now, after disagreeing with me about his mean-spirited name calling, e writes:
>This kind of needless, oblivious sanctimony would be an embarrassment to
>everyone on this list were there any reason for 420 people to be
>embarrassed by one fool's blather. Do you really think your entire sermon
>didn't enter my mind before sending that post? I had a good laugh about
>it, too. Lighten up, buddy. Or if you wish to be outraged, at least be
>outraged about something about which someone gives a shit.
>
>Stupid Darkwaver.


I can't believe this!  I assume you are meaning to refer to myself when you
say "one fool's blather" and "Stupid Darkwaver"?  So, the next time I
disagree with someone here, I'll just calI them STUPID and insult you, as e
does. In fact, why don't we all do this!  That'd make the list more lively.
Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).

Got to go; time for some hopscotch, monkey bars, and an afternoon nap!


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:03:56 -0800
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller


On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Ryan wrote:

> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).

You truly *are* an idiot.  Since when do Seefeel and the Grateful Dead
constitute darkwave?

You need to go visit a Projekt CD collection, my friend...

-------
 |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_
 |   Internet: mfischer@nsi.edu            The Neurosciences Institute   |
()   Phone: 619.626.2000  Pager: 619.645.5693            San Diego, CA   |

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 23:03:22 +0100
From: Frank Brinkhuis (brink2@XS4ALL.NL)
Subject: Re: 4AD - Best year/Richenel


Andie wrote:

>For me the best year has got to be 1986:
>
>        The very 4AD _ L'escalve Endormi _ by Richenel, was released in
>January.
>One of my French friends (how cosmipolitan I am) said that Monsieur
>Richenel is/was half French half English, and was somehow related to one of
>the Stranglers (I think). Is this true? I heard a really bad Euro-Pop
>single of his on a jukebox in the South of France, but has he done anything
>else worthwhile?

The Richenel 12" wasn't very 4AD as it was licensed from the Dutch,
Amsterdam based MEGADISC label. After 'L'Esclave' he did some other, mainly
club/dance outings (including a 12" and an LP) but most of it is shit.
What's more interesting is the stuff he did BEFORE 'L'Esclave': a few solo
cassettes as well as a few cassette-contributions on the Fetish label, also
from Amsterdam, ca. 1982-1984.
I have one of the solo tapes somewhere here, can't find it now though, and a
compilation cassette, called 'For There Is No Heaven' (1982), including
Richenel with 'Mustang Sally' and 'Save Me'. Great stuff!

Frank

++++++++++++
brink2@xs4all.nl
++++++++++++


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:08:20 -0500
From: SortSol@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?


>>k-j is right...you could call it purist4ad-l or something. This is the
whole<<

I'm not a purist. Just assumed that a list called "4AD-L" would contain a
little more than 10% 4AD content. That's just me though.

SortSol

P.S. What does my not being on the list for very long have to do with
anything you fucking snobs!!!

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:55:47 -0500
From: Roy Burns (RBNRy@AOL.COM)
Subject: 4AD: Those who've gone off to make crap and TMC relatives


Here we go.

Actually, I think Modern English wins the all time prize for this one.
 "Pillow Lips", with "Melt With You '91" or some such dreck had gorgeous
sleeves, but was an incredibly empty album (as was "Stop Start"). If v23
stuck to their "design evoking the music" aesthetic, there would have been a
big piece of shit on the cover!!!!

And since so many bring it up. Xymox? What the...?!?!?  Ronny you had a good
thing 'goin. Who in the hell convinced you to do "Wild Thing". Jesus H.!!!

Let's face it, with a track record like this, the next RHP album is just
bound to be shit!!!


On the TMC front...

Heidi Berry's first LP on Creation (i.e. B.4 A.D.) is really really good and
you should all buy it now!!!!

Dierdre Rutkowski is in a band called The Kindness of Strangers (the liner
notes thank Ivo as well). It was complete and total garbage I think!

Caroline Seaman's Heavenly Bodies was O.K. (anyone else think she sounds like
Cyndi Lauper?).

Anyone heard any other Allison Limerick stuff? She was on Arista (i.e. Ray
Parker Jr./Whitney Houston's label) last I heard. Any albums?

Everything that Dominic Appleton and Breathless have done is beautiful. Buy
it!!! (IPR sells it through mail-order).

The only CindyTalk stuff I've heard is pretty good (in a very, very early 4AD
sort of way). Their "Camouflage Heart" LP is a great B-side to the CTs
"Garlands".

In response to Andie's invite (and in a reference to TMC's version of
"Sixteen Days"/"Gathering Dust"):

Wolfgang's Mick Allen w/ CTs Elizabeth Fraser doing the Pixies' "Here Comes
Your Man" (have Colourbox do the instrumentation).

Brendan Perry doing Richenel's "L'esclave Endormi" (the "get in the mood for
lovin' version" on the second side).

G'bye,

RBN Ry

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:30:02 +0100
From: Frank Brinkhuis (brink2@XS4ALL.NL)
Subject: Re: 4AD - 4th mortal coil


I'd love to see all 4AD artists, past and present, and the staff, go into
the studio and do 'We Are The World'!

Frank
++++++++++++
brink2@xs4all.nl
++++++++++++

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:19:31 -0700
From: Russell Martin (russellm@XMISSION.COM)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller


After reading this message, I couldn't help but respond with the sermon below:

>On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Ryan wrote:
>
>> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
>> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
>> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).
>
>You truly *are* an idiot.  Since when do Seefeel and the Grateful Dead
>constitute darkwave?
>
>You need to go visit a Projekt CD collection, my friend...
>
>-------
> |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_
> |   Internet: mfischer@nsi.edu            The Neurosciences Institute   |
>()   Phone: 619.626.2000  Pager: 619.645.5693            San Diego, CA   |

I subscribed to this list only about a week or two ago, and I am sorely
disappointed. The amount of flame-age that I have seen is truly saddening.
The above example is certainly not the worst example of what appears on
this list, but it does seem indicative of the kind of rude and thoughtless
comments that I have begun to dread seeing from day to day.

I believe that it is okay to have differences of opinion. I think that it
is even healthy to express these differences and discuss them. It teaches
us too look at things from other perspectives.

I think that it is silly to insult people when they have an opinion that is
different from your own. I think that insulting someone because they ask a
question that you think is stupid is blatant arrogance.

All of us at some point will ask a seemingly stupid question or have an
opinion that others find fault with. That's fine. Find fault with the
questions, find fault with the opinions...but PLEASE don't use that as an
excuse to attack someone.

Name calling, insulting, flaming...keep these things to yourself! Save the
rest of us the trouble of evening having to glance over this rubbage before
"hitting the delete key".

Enough said.

******In Other News******

>>>>>>>>>>...think I'm getting the hang of it<<<<<<<<<<

I was in Phoenix this past weekend and I picked up a copy of "...think I'm
getting the hang of it" at a Body Shop location. Only after I walked out of
the shop and was admiring the coveted disc, did I realize that I already
had a copy. (Hey, I work in a record shop and I get a lot of promos; it's
hard to remember them all.) So, if there is any one out there who is in
dire need of this, I would love to sell it to you or trade for something.
Make me an offer. (If you're thinking cash, I'm thinking $10 plus money to
cover postage.)

>>>>>>>>>>Undergound Lovers<<<<<<<<<<

Until I subscribed to this list, I had no idea that Undergound Lovers had
been connected with 4AD. I just thought that "Dream it Down" was one of the
best promos I received this past summer. Anyway, I picked up a copy of
"leaves me blind", and an earlier release (not on Guernica) of an album
called "Get to Notice". They are both great. Does anyone know about other
releases by the Lovers? A discography maybe?

>>>>>>>>>Elysium<<<<<<<<<<

I also visited Stinkweeds out in Mesa, AZ (Hi Kimber!) and purchased a copy
of Elysium "glisten." I thoroughly enjoy this, so thanks to those of you
whose email let me know about them in the first place.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Martin                           "Hey, there blimpy boy
russellm@xmission.com                    flying through the sky so fancy free"
                                                                  -H.
Simpson


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:30:40 -0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: name calling


>> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
>> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
>> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).
>
>You truly *are* an idiot.  Since when do Seefeel and the Grateful Dead
>constitute darkwave?
>
>You need to go visit a Projekt CD collection, my friend...

What the heck is happening here?  Would you people stop your petty feuding?
The attitude here is making me sick.  Can we use just a little bit of
respect for our fellow listies?   Lighten up.  If you were following these
messages you'd realize that Ryan was getting defensive and using these bands
as examples of how he was NOT a darkwaver.  Ryan knows full well what's
released on Projekt (LSD discussion ring a bell?).  If you're going to call
someone an idiot you'd better make sure you're doing so for a good reason.

-cz

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:44:00 -0800
From: snowangel k-j (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?


> P.S. What does my not being on the list for very long have to do with
> anything you fucking snobs!!!

  it has to do with how much of the list you have absorbed and for what
  period of time. if you've been around awhile, you'd know what the
  discussions consist of and why they aren't entirely 4ad-related.
  it is impossible to make this list nothing but 4ad content. 4ad hasn't
  exactly generated an enormous amount of material worth having
  month long discussions over for quite a long time now. the releases
  aren't earth shattering or groundbreaking, for the most part. just how
  can one go in-depth on air miami or liquorice? 4ad seems to spend
  more time on promotional releases than it does with material from
  individual artistes...they seem to be in a signing funk.....the
  label has been in a stale state for some time. might as well talk about
  too pure or projekt or warp instead...there's still hope for them...


  j plays a mean circle jerks bassline,
  k-j


  ...bagel bites rule...

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:28:37 -0600
From: Martin Wagner (hepcats@EDEN.COM)
Subject: Re: 4AD - subject headings


It seems that with all this discussion (well, it's bellyaching really)
about what people should put in their subject headers or what constitutes
"listy" or "nonlisty," etc., what some folks are forgetting is that it's
a fairly simple procedure to delete without reading any letter you don't
care about. Since Projekt, Hyperium, etc., are "listy" labels their
discussion here isn't inappropriate, and I don't see how it causes anyone
here who just wishes to read about 4AD bands excessive mental strife to
delete a letter headed
"Projekt," and save letters headed "TMC" or "Cocteaus" or what have
you. This really isn't something for people to get their panties in a
knot about.

Martin

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:03:09 -0600
From: Sung Shim (foss@STARNETINC.COM)
Subject: Mere comment on the 4ad/not 4ad, no actual 4ad content, sorry


     Since I delete about every 3 out of 4 messages posted here, I haven't
been noticing this big flame war about what's appropriate and what isn't
appropriate for posting here.  Unfortunately I ran into one today.

     Why must we go through stuff like this?  Doesn't subscribing to a list
also involve browsing through and deleting things you don't want to read?
There are bigger problems in life, let's not waste so much energy on
something so trivial.  I think people on this list are smart enough to post
things that are pretty much in the general ball park of what people here
might want to hear about, and from the past ~2 years that I've been off and
on this list this has shown to be the case, the only tiny thing that could
be bettered is people changing subjects to something a little more
appropriate about what's in the body of the message.  In anycase, let's all
take a nap and not be so cranky!

toodles,
sung


--
  foss@starnetinc.com
  http://www.starnetinc.com/pwp/foss/belly/belly.htm

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:17:00 -0800
From: snowangel k-j (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: let's all go on grudge match! ..plus, anuddah proposal


  really! it'll be fun. elitist f'in snobs against newbies..aol kids
  vs. the badass netcom punks...e vs. everyone...digital lovers against
  jOHN...


  seriously, let's talk music. real music. pick an album, or band..and
  go on a writing spree about it/them. why is such and such lbum so
  important to you? what impact did this or that have on your life, your
  musical views, your definition of music? is there an album or group
  that had such an impact on you? etc...
  i'll start with my beloved HNIA and the two most important albums of
  my life later on tonight....be prepared for something more lengthy
  than the yellow pages...


  flutter,
  k


  ...billy corgan kinda looks like the original Nosferatu now...or Powder...

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:05:55 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller


On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Ryan wrote:

> >Stupid Darkwaver.
>
> I can't believe this!  I assume you are meaning to refer to myself when you
> say "one fool's blather" and "Stupid Darkwaver"?

That's a fair guess.

> So, the next time I
> disagree with someone here, I'll just calI them STUPID and insult you, as e
> does.

As I recall, this was done in the context of a lengthy response which you
ignored. And in which you labelled me the equivalent of a racist. And now
you are calling me a name caller. You are such a hypocrite, Ryan. The
only difference between you and me on this front is that you think this
stuff is important and are whining about it. Are you trying to embarrass
the other subscribers??

> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again?

Well they *did* after all have people like you in grade school. (As I
recall, you're the ones the rest of us beat up all the time and ran away
from so we could smoke.)

> (and BTW, did I say I
> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).

*sigh* The Elusive Ryan. I guess I missed the mark on that one, didn't I?

> Got to go; time for some hopscotch, monkey bars, and an afternoon nap!

Maybe you just need a hug?


  einexile the tricky troll

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:16:57 -0800
From: mvs (mvs@WCO.COM)
Subject: Free: Song..sounds like Dif Juz


Hi 4ad Fans!

My freind recently wrote a song that sounds like it could be
just like Dif Juz.  I'll make free copies of it for anyone
who is interested and willing to offer their constructive
criticisms in return.  Please use private e-mail to contact
me. :)

Monty


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:32:42 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: blessed are the netpolitzei


On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Russell Martin wrote:

> After reading this message, I couldn't help but respond with the sermon below:
>
> >On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Ryan wrote:
> >
> >> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
> >> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
> >> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).
> >
> >You truly *are* an idiot.  Since when do Seefeel and the Grateful Dead
> >constitute darkwave?
> >
> >You need to go visit a Projekt CD collection, my friend...
> >
> >-------
> > |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_

Okay, so this person put his foot in his mouth and was mean. Either that
or he is screwing around and is funny as hell. (I don't mean that as a
shot.) So why don't you blame him instead of the rest of us? It's not as
if Ryan is full of love and good cheer for his follow man, anyway. And
it's not as if he doesn't open himself up to such remarks by acting like
he has no idea why I called him a Darkwaver.

> I subscribed to this list only about a week or two ago, and I am sorely
> disappointed. The amount of flame-age that I have seen is truly saddening.

Where?? The only flame war going on here is more an intellectual
excercise than a flame. I'm surprised anyone is even reading it. Sure,
there were the Cocteaux/Seefeel Wars of Last Week, but does anyone even
remember them?

> The above example is certainly not the worst example of what appears on
> this list, but it does seem indicative of the kind of rude and thoughtless
> comments that I have begun to dread seeing from day to day.

I personally haven't seen anything worse in months. What you are doing
here is condemning a large group of people and you think because you
don't put your finger on actual individuals that this is okay, but I
really think it is a slam on all or most of us who try to keep this list
relatively clean. And it *is* the cleanest music list I have been on. If
you have a problem with an actual person's behavior, go after him. It
seems to me that you are trying to avoid the burden of doing that.

What really bothers me about *your* message is that it is representative
of a big, ugly cultural trend that shows its face here more and more and
which Ryan is also guilty of, which is this new love everyone has for
stepping into other people's fights and shooshing them and setting
guidelines and crying STOP STOP STOP THE HATE! Why do you need to do
this?

 e

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:50:28 -0800
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?


On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, snowangel k-j wrote:

> > P.S. What does my not being on the list for very long have to do with
> > anything you fucking snobs!!!
>
>   it has to do with how much of the list you have absorbed and for what
>   period of time. if you've been around awhile, you'd know what the
>   discussions consist of and why they aren't entirely 4ad-related.

But they are more than 10% 4AD-related. Most thislisty does have 4AD ties
in that it has influenced, or is influenced by, 4AD artists, or
references have been made between these bands, they share members,
producers, are friends, etc. For just about any band mentioned on this
list in recent memory I could draw a connection to 4AD in two or three
hops. It's really NOT that bad.

>   it is impossible to make this list nothing but 4ad content. 4ad hasn't
>   exactly generated an enormous amount of material worth having
>   month long discussions over for quite a long time now. the releases
>   aren't earth shattering or groundbreaking, for the most part. just how
>   can one go in-depth on air miami or liquorice?

Can't one go indepth into arguing that they are shit? I wouldn't
personally do do, but it's been done. I think the problem is that there
is a certain degree of unanimity on these issues. Everyone hates Scheer,
everyone loves Mojave, no one really ceels passionately either way about
Liquourice or The Amps, and any arguments that do pop up are cordonned
off with police tape by the 4ad-l hall monitors.

>   4ad seems to spend
>   more time on promotional releases than it does with material from
>   individual artistes...

It doesn't look to me like they spend any time at all on their promo
releases. :p

>   they seem to be in a signing funk.....the
>   label has been in a stale state for some time. might as well talk about
>   too pure or projekt or warp instead...there's still hope for them...

You sound like you think they are all going downhill! Especially when
measured up against the sad state of most thislisty. Too Pure are doing
their thing and doing it well (I hate it so I'll leave it at that),
Projekt, except for this ridiculous Christmas release (which in all
fairness I have not heard) is looking good, Warp are releasing some of
the best shit anyone can get their hands on...AND YOU FORGOT FAX!! :)

Cheer up, dammit!


 einexile, faxkeonig de 4ad-l

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:41:54 -0500
From: Alex Wolfson (ajw6@COLUMBIA.EDU)
Subject: Addition for EYESORE


LARSI-

Was looking for lisa gerrard, but didn't see it in the DB.  So just in
case, here's the info from the promo-release of the mirror pool.

Lisa Gerrard - The Mirror Pool (CAD 5009)
1 VIOLINA the last embrace
2 LA BAS song of the drowned
3 PERSIAN LOVE SONG the silver gun
4 SANVEAN i am your shadow
5 THE RITE
6 AJHON
7 GLORAFIN
8 MAJHNAVEA'S MUSIC BOX
9 LARGO
10 WERD
11 LAURELEI
12 CELON
13 VENTELES
14 SWANS
15 NILLESHNA
16 GLORADIN

By the way, anyone with an extra 13yi to swap for Mirror Pool Promo AND FTWW?

Alex

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* Columbia Institute for Tele-Information * 809 Uris Hall * New York NY 10027 *
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* ph 212 854 4222 * fx 212 932 7816 * wb www.ctr.columbia.edu/citi/index.html *
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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:44:33 -0800
From: Peter Repetti (repetti@NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: the body shop cd


living in the california's bay area, i thought i was well positioned to pick
up one of the very talked about body shop sampler cds, especially since
someone recently posted that they picked it up in san francisco.  after
visiting two locations, i have come up with disappointing results both
times.  there is no lack of cds to be given away, it is just the WRONG CD!
at the body shop locations in both concord and SF (market), they are both
giving away a cd with annie lennox, aretha franklin....etc.  surely everyone
is not excited about *this* cd!

can someone please tell me at which body shop in SF the cd is available?

ugh,
thanks,
peter


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:11:26 -0500
From: Steven Venn (svenn@INFORAMP.NET)
Subject: Re: name calling


If you're going to call someone an idiot you'd better make sure you're
doing so for a good reason.
>
>-cz

This is true, afterall when it all gets boiled down to its primary elements
we are talking
about music and music can be very fleeting and changeable, so lighten up
and stop taking
it all so seriously. Sure have an interest even if it differs from others,
but don't insult others
because they don't always share your views especially about something ephemeral
but yet very subjective as music.

Steve

20th Century"



The Truth is out there.

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:11:28 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: let's all go on grudge match! ..plus, anuddah proposal


>  seriously, let's talk music. real music. pick an album, or band..and
>  go on a writing spree about it/them. why is such and such lbum so
>  important to you? what impact did this or that have on your life, your
>  musical views, your definition of music? is there an album or group
>  that had such an impact on you? etc...
>  i'll start with my beloved HNIA and the two most important albums of
>  my life later on tonight....be prepared for something more lengthy
>  than the yellow pages...

Thank you very much, k-j.  God, you'd think that people here have something
better to do with their lives than argue over their fucking computer about
who-called-who-what.  I don't think _any_ of us joined this list to discuss
that.

Peeved,
Jake

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:00:33 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: einexile, the great name caller


>On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Ryan wrote:
>
>> Why do I feel like I am back in grade school again? (and BTW, did I say I
>> was into "Darkwave" music? Seefeel, Slowdive/Mojave 3, and the Grateful
>> Dead are probably my favorite bands/artists).
>
>You truly *are* an idiot.  Since when do Seefeel and the Grateful Dead
>constitute darkwave?

Watch who you're caling an idiot.  If you'll go back and read what he said a
little more carefully, you'll see that he's specifically saying those
_aren't_ darkwave bands, hence he shouldn't be labeled a darkwaver.

Lighten up, Michael.  A little politeness never hurt anyone.

Jake

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:20:38 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: a new debate?


>1982  Garlands
>1983  Song To The Siren / Head Over Heels
>1984  It'll End In Tears / Treasure
>1985  Spleen And Ideal
>1986  Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares / Spleen And Ideal
>1987  Within The Realm Of A Dying Sun
>1988  Surfer Rosa / The Serpent's Egg
>1989  Doolittle
>1990  Pod / Bossanova
>1991  Blood / 10 Disc CD Collection

What's this "10 disc cd collection?"  Is this the CT boxed set, or something
else that I missed?

Jake


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:16:35 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?


>Can't one go indepth into arguing that they are shit? I wouldn't
>personally do do, but it's been done. I think the problem is that there
>is a certain degree of unanimity on these issues. Everyone hates Scheer,
>everyone loves Mojave, no one really ceels passionately either way about
>Liquourice or The Amps, and any arguments that do pop up are cordonned
>off with police tape by the 4ad-l hall monitors.

1) Wrong about Scheer, my friend.  Notice the thread from last week where
several of us stated that we liked them.  And personally, I think Liquorice
are brilliant, and Air Miami were great in concert.  And the arguments that
people are trying to avoid are things like petty "dumb AOLer" threads.  I
think we can all pretty much agree that's non-thislisty.

I may be in the minority, but I still think there is some decent stuff being
released on 4AD.  Otherwise I would have unsubbed by now.

Jake

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:31:20 -0800
From: Heffalump (n9344881@FOZZIE.CC.WWU.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4-ad list or not?


>   it is impossible to make this list nothing but 4ad content. 4ad hasn't

Um, I don't think that's true.  If the members chose to make it nothing
but 4ad content, it would easily be done.

>   exactly generated an enormous amount of material worth having
>   month long discussions over for quite a long time now. the releases

Well perhaps we shouldn't send as many messages then.  I don't *need* to
read 50 new messages each day... regarding issues, bands, or what have
you that I've got next to no interest in.  In fact, I'd really rather
read 4 or 5 informative or interesting messages each day rather than
the type of junk we get now.  Granted--they are in my inbox, usually.
That's why I'm still on the list.

I am on other lists that stay on topic all the time.  I assure you, it's
*nice*.  Over here... with all the crap flying around and this
scatterbrained discussion of 'portishead' or 'medicine' and whatnot... wow;
what a difference.  It wasn't so bad a couple of years ago with thislisty
discussion being included ... but it seems now that the thislisty posts
outweigh the on-topic ones.  Perhaps it's time to move to/create other lists?
Perhaps it's time the 4ad list lives up to its name?

Anyway, here's plenty of material out there... considering the current
and past 4ad releases, and non-4ad releases from bands that were once on
the label, 4ad artist side-projects... etc etc.  At least it would get away
from "you're an idiot!"

>   aren't earth shattering or groundbreaking, for the most part. just how
>   can one go in-depth on air miami or liquorice? 4ad seems to spend

We could go in-depth on how boring some of us think Air Miami and
Liquorice are.  I could go in-depth on either one, actually...  I usually
spend my email time 'hitting the delete key' instead, though.  On 9600,
with 50-100 messages... it does take time.

Does anybody have information on (1) a Warren Defever list or (2) a Red
House Painters list?  I've gotten lots of good info regarding those
topics here... but I'm starting to wonder if it's worth reading through
the rest of the junk...

>   ...bagel bites rule...

Bagelry whole-wheat bagels with low-fat italian/sun dried tomato cream
cheese rule.

                            n9344881@cc.wwu.edu
  "He who clearly apprehends the scheme of existence does not rejoice over
 life, nor repine at death; for he knows that external limits are not final."

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:50:40 -0500
From: Steven Venn (svenn@INFORAMP.NET)
Subject: Re: blessed are the netpolitzei


Hey Herr Einexile:

Relax man, the guy will probably look into Projekt now so you won that
battle, but
really insulting someone is not that cool. As for your darkwave comment
that just
makes you look like a music snob not a guy trying to educate and enrich people's
lives with Projekt and related labels. If the guy likes the Dead he'll get
bored and
leave but wouldn't it be cool if he began to like more of the 4AD/Projekt
etc bands
and music and liked Dead stuff less over time. We are important in
continuing that
education and if the labels are to survive they have to rely on word of mouth as
the music press relatively screws them alot. So don't forget, others might not
know as much as you but they also expect you to help them to know more and
that is
a good thing, you don't own 4AD or Projekt, you can't covet it like your
own toy.
If someone happens to like the Dead as well as Seefeel then that's his business
and he is the one who might benefit from learning the difference between them.
But not by being insulted about it. I see it all to often that people use
words on
the net in flames that can be quite destructive. Maybe if we have an IQ test on
him, found him to be below average intelligence and not able to contribute
to society, then we might be able to call him idiot (even then idiot is
still derogatory),
but the only idiocy I see is in name-calling and being a poseur.
Relax, like I said before, its only music, music is an extension of self, not a
dictatorship rule which we must follow, you are free to choose what you want to
listen to and subscribe to whatever mailists you choose.

Keep the group clean? Now how did you become the person to decide who does
and who doesn't get into this group. I think he will leave if he wants to
and due to the
nature of the net, you can't keep him from being a part of the group,
that's the great
thing about the net good or bad its for everyone and no one controls it,
not you not me
and certainly not the government (thank god) so just lighten up.

Oh and I only jump into it if I think someone's freedom to be part of a
group is being
compromised but at the same time I guess that freedom allows you to express your
views no matter how insulting they can be too. If you have a rant publish a
zine, set
up a net site (which people can "choose" to go to) but don't fill my
mailbox with your
insults against people.

Just for the record I don't like the Dead either (for myself), but that's
not my point.

That's my $.02

Steve

P.S.

You also say:

>What really bothers me about *your* message is that it is representative
>of a big, ugly cultural trend that shows its face here more and more and
>which Ryan is also guilty of, which is this new love everyone has for
>stepping into other people's fights and shooshing them and setting
>guidelines and crying STOP STOP STOP THE HATE!
>Why do you need to do this?
>
> e


Why do we need to do this? ha ha that's great, isn't there enough Hate already
on the net. I don't think 4AD mailists are the place for standing up for people
who think that Hate is a good thing, there are other mailists and newsgroups
for them. The worst is you don't know the guy and that is the root of the
racism
problem in the world right there, the not knowing and the ignorance, the guy
might really be a nice guy even if he does lilke the Dead, but you don't know
him so don't be calling him or anyone else "an idiot" if you don't know him.

20th Century"



The Truth is out there.

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:56:06 -0800
From: bmilner (bmilner@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Aren't opinions funny?


All this silly praising and flaming musical groups going on on this
list.  How funny.  Music IS subjective you know.  Let's try and stay open
minded about it ok?  But that's not why I'm writing... I'm writing to
throw out my own opinions!  :)

        That dog in concert - fun as hell and great singers!  (at least
                              on the last tour)

        Red House Painters - One of the best bands ever for 379 different
                             reasons!

        Seefeel -  emotionless music to get a massage by a robot to :)

Brandon Milner
bmilner@netcom.com

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:13:36 -0800
From: Jake Reichert (reicja00@DONS.AC.USFCA.EDU)
Subject: Re: the body shop cd


>can someone please tell me at which body shop in SF the cd is available?

Hmmm... that's really strange.  I got mine from the Body Shop on Market
about two weeks ago.  It sounds like they were giving away that cd after
TIGTHOI ran out or something.  Maybe you could ask if they have any left or
if they could get some from their corporate headquarters.

Jake


Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:06:09 -0800
From: Jens Alfke (jens@MOOSEYARD.COM)
Subject: Re: Mark K. / Caroline Records (Idaho) / Bettie Seveer


Delphine Eunice Hwang writes:
>> Caroline (no major label/distrubution affiliation to my knowledge).  Does
>> anyone know of anyother 'worthy' bands on Caroline?
>
>        yes. bark psychosis.  subtle, dark, lovely.

To bicker mildly, Bark Psychosis are on 3rd Stone, a small British indie
label. Their album "Hex" was released on Caroline in the US. (I think
it's been pointed out already that Virgin distributes Caroline, although
I don't think they own them.)
  Caroline did _not_ release Bark Psychosis' album "Independency" (a
compilation of their first three EPs), which is at least as wonderful as
"Hex" and goes in some very different directions, including some
near-folk and some near-techno.
  No real news. This post was really just an excuse to mention Bark
Psychosis again in the hopes that it might induce someone else to go buy
something by them.

--Jens Alfke
  jens@inow.com

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 19:29:36 -0800
From: "Elvia M. Tarango" (elvia@UCLINK3.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: Re: Aren't opinions funny?


>All this silly praising and flaming musical groups going on on this
>list.  How funny.  Music IS subjective you know.  Let's try and stay open
>minded about it ok?

There has been several surveys and research studies that indicate that
music ranks
higher than sex. So you see, all of you individuals who think you have the
corner on
the most sensational band, that in fact it is a subjective interpretation.
In Berkeley and San Francisco that Tower record employees act like Tower
records is a band and they conduct themselves
in a snotty and aloof attitude, very similar to some individuals on this
list.  Catch a clue: The majority of you don't have the talent to be on 4AD
or for that matter on any label.  The majority of
you are in a sense, voyeurs. Desperately sinking the next thrill. The
majority of you, including myself, are part and partial the consuming
public, which means you receive the same good feelings as one who loves to
listen to Maria Carrey or Boston.  So stop wearing so much black and stop
flaming people who may not know the answer to minutiae that really doesn't
mean a hill of beans.

I feel this list should be open to expression of likes and dislikes, but
more importantly it should be a means of sharing good, I repeat, good
music.  I'm just adding my two point 5 cents into the above post.

A tongue lashing to some 4AD list members. Change steals the breath of
periodic coolness.

Fred/Derf

(c/o elvia@uclink3.berkley.edu)