4ad-l Mail for 09-22-1995

Mail in Archive

Subject: Modern English/Xmal
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:42:33 -0800
From: "Heileson, Thom" (heilts1@MACGWX.GHC.ORG)
Subject: Re: m7x
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:21:08 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: DeadCanDance
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:31:12 CDT
From: ariane181@DALLAS.EMAIL.NET
Subject: Lisa Germano "Cry Wolf" promo cd for sale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:18:59 -0400
From: Gil Gershman (TooPurist@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: 4AD, hold the "4"
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:25:34 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: DeadCanDance
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:01:28 -0700
From: Robert Pietrusko (cantique@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: red house painter lyrics
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:36:13 EDT
From: Alan Daniel (alan@MSAI.COM)
Subject: Spiritualized Live? Pure Bliss!
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:06:10 -0400
From: DscribeDC@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:34:56 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: Band names
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:13:31 -0700
From: Brandon Capps (bcapps@PRIMENET.COM)
Subject: re DCD
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:08:44 BST
From: Nigel Sinfield (nige@WG.ICL.CO.UK)
Subject: FTWW for trade-sies (and more)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:21:07 -0400
From: Roy Burns (RBNRy@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:40:08 -0400
From: David Heath (dave@AMIL.JHU.EDU)
Subject: Re: the real death of rock and roll
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:16:29 -0500
From: kylexene@TEZCAT.COM
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:32:22 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Trades/sale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:08:57 +0100
From: p.r.green@IC.AC.UK
Subject: Re: xmal deutschland help
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:49:24 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@nsi.edu)
Subject: band names, atheism aplenty
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:04:24 -0400
From: Larry Koch (larry@INTERLOG.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:40:47 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: more music to sleep to
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:09:15 EDT
From: "Holly A. Hopey" (bio4hah@CABELL.VCU.EDU)
Subject: Re: DeadCanDance
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:55:10 -0600
From: mesocyclone (soon@UNM.EDU)
Subject: lovesliescrushing
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:00:26 -0600
From: mesocyclone (soon@UNM.EDU)
Subject: Re: Trades/sale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:58:48 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:28:33 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: band names, atheism aplenty
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:01:21 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:56:08 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: Twinlights
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:08:54 -0400
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Re: the real death of rock and roll
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:53:31 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: m7x
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:28:25 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:52:21 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: m7x
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:56:09 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Cocteau Twins release schedule
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:17:05 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Lisa Germano "Cry Wolf" promo cd for sale
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:38:46 -0400
From: Alex Wolfson (ajw6@COLUMBIA.EDU)
Subject: AFX/XMAL/CT/Slowdive
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:01:24 -0800
From: "Heileson, Thom" (heilts1@MACGWX.GHC.ORG)
Subject: Lisa Gerrard - Minneapolis
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:22:05 -0500
From: Terry Collins (ispy@OAK.NCC.UMN.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:45:36 -0600
From: "Page S. Tuminello" (pst@BASTE.MAGIBOX.NET)
Subject: A little tidbit on the LSD/F&D/TttS show....
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:06:27 -0700
From: Ivo Lorelei -{Gothique Extraordinaire}- (beswick@chaph.usc.edu)
Subject: band names (catherine wheel)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:45:41 -0400
From: Christina Johnson (br713@freenet.carleton.ca)
Subject: Revelatory music
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:17:46 CDT
From: Steven W Hill (shill@HARPER.CC.IL.US)
Subject: Re: Bands named after songs [was: DeadCanDance]
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:30:18 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: cocteau origin FAQ
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:20:44 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Twinlights
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:09:13 -0600
From: ".bigloveeyes." (vonminde@RINTINTIN.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: Seaya/Laetitia, German, Lush list, obligatory atheism .sig
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:53:38 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:07:59 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:47:07 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:37:52 -0500
From: Martin Wagner (hepcats@EDEN.COM)
Subject: the stars dance...burst...melt before our eyes...
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:03:50 -0700
From: nOISEgIRLY k-j and jOHN (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Revelatory music
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:34:57 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: LSD/F&D/TttS show
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:20:56 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:07:18 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: aUTECHRE.aMBER
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:57:12 -0400
From: bruce levenstein (bruceL@INTERRAMP.COM)
Subject: Re: the stars dance...burst...melt before our eyes...
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:33:25 -0400
From: wendy lyon (wlyon@DELPHI.UMD.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 05:01:45 +0100
From: Nick Mulder (n_mulder@BART.NL)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:17:36 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations (strictly nominal 4ad content)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:37:06 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations (still no 4ad content)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:16:07 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:07:12 -0400
From: wendy lyon (wlyon@DELPHI.UMD.EDU)

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:42:33 -0800
From: "Heileson, Thom" (heilts1@MACGWX.GHC.ORG)
Subject: Modern English/Xmal


>Modern English - one of the 4AD bands I have never heard (as far as I know)=
>. I was in one of my local stores the other day, and I saw two 4AD LP's on =
>CD (with extra tracks). There was also another CD, but it didn't look like =
>it was the 4AD label.
>
> What do they sound like?
> Are they worth getting (Paying SA rands =3D 17,50 =A3 or $27,00).
> What else have they done?

Modern English's 2nd album, After the Snow, was my all-time favorite album
for years; it was to be overtaken by the last two Talk Talk albums and This
Mortal Coil's Filigree And Shadow (and some others), but I still think it's
great -- some really good songs, a mysterious & uplifting music experience.

I believe that ME's 1st record, Mesh & Lace, was 4AD's very first album.
Anyone? Anyway, I enjoy M&L, but it may be for die-hard fans only. My advice:
_definitely_ get After The Snow... and Ricochet Days... Mesh & Lace if you
can find/afford it... stay away from the last two, Stop Start and Pillow
Lips. They are sadly, disillusioningly bad.

>Now, next point - are they worth buying for full price ??

FtS and RD are.

-----

>I would say, If atheists exist are we sure there is there a God?

I, an agnostic, say: "I don't know."

-----

>
>what is amber what is garbage?

Amber is a recent album by Autechre and is very good IMO (all Autechre is
very good IMO). Garbage is a 40-odd minute EP and is my favorite thing by
them. The first track is one of the best songs of the last year, methinks.

-----

>
>i recently picked up xmal deutschland's _tocsin_, which i thoroughly enjoy.=
>  i
>was wondering if the material on this cd is fairly indicative of the kind o=
>f
>stuff on their other releases and how this one stacks up against them.

Fetisch came before Tocsin and is more raw, good IMO but not as good as
Tocsin (BTW, how about that cover on Tocsin? Gorgeous!). After Tocsin came
some albums which were kind of schlocky, more compromising pop.

    + ---    Thom S. Heileson
   + +-             oR                 [antiAxiomaticism unlimited]
    + -    phASER@cyberspace.com

           heilts1@macgw.ghc.org

"Don't throw ashtrays at me." - Can (the most sublime lyric ever sung)

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:21:08 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: Re: m7x

              <199509211608.JAA29937@ix6.ix.netcom.com>

i prefer boxers lined with staples...an SM kick


Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:31:12 CDT
From: ariane181@DALLAS.EMAIL.NET
Subject: DeadCanDance

              <199509210252.TAA25069@jeeves.usfca.edu>

hi jake...
concerning bands that have taken their names from other bands' songs, i think
you may have confused catherine wheel with the cocteau twins who took their
name from an obscure simple minds song (so i've read. i've never actually
heard the song or anything!) or perhaps both bands did...

has anyone ever heard that simple minds song?

j.ariane

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:18:59 -0400
From: Gil Gershman (TooPurist@AOL.COM)
Subject: Lisa Germano "Cry Wolf" promo cd for sale


Hi -

I just found this - there must be some devoted fan who has been trying to get
a copy of Lisa Germano's "Cry Wolf" CD - all tracks are either remixed from
the LP versions or non-LP altogether. . . It must be long out of print by
now.

Here's the info:

PRO-CD-7347
LISA GERMANO - "CRY WOLF"
4AD US 1992

1. Cry Wolf (edit) 4:07
2. The Mirror is Gone (previously unreleased) 2:41
3. Cancer of Everything (remix) 3:44
4. Sexy Little Girl Princess (remix) 3:45

If you're interested, make me an offer. E-mail me: TooPurist@AOL.com

Thanks
Gil

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:25:34 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4AD, hold the "4"


jeffrey remarked:
> Of course, the same line of thought applies to unicorns, leprechauns, the
> luminiferous ether, a good cheap apartment in NYC, and the new My Bloody
> Valentine CD....

        Read what I wrote in my subsequent post: the comparison between
God and these things is invalid. That's what the whole thing hinges upon.

= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters    =

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:01:28 -0700
From: Robert Pietrusko (cantique@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: DeadCanDance


You wrote:
>
>> Anyone heard any more bands on the 4AD label that sounds like Dead
Can Dance /
>> This Mortal Coil / Cocteau Twins except from His Name Is Alive ?
>
>Eden's first cd sounds a bit like dcd.  they're now on projekt.
whenever
>i hear the dcd line (can't remember which song right now)that says "I
have a
>son, his name is eden" i wonder if maybe that's where eden got it's
>name.  Anyone else like to comment on this group?  I think they're
pretty
>good but kind of boring.
>

yeah, i like them too! check out the "healingbow ep" on projekt. you
should also check out "metal traveller" and "oxiea" by Love is Colder
Than Death.

                                -robert.

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:36:13 EDT
From: Alan Daniel (alan@MSAI.COM)
Subject: red house painter lyrics


someone posted within the past few weeks about the lyrics being at their web
site.  problem: i don't have access.  could someone please send me some sort
of copy.  mark kozelek writes  beautiful lyrics, and i know most of them, at
least i believe so, but i would really like to know the few words and phrases
that i can't make out.  i believe i still have the 'throwing muses university'
sticker in the back seat of my car i would be willing to give in exchange for
your trouble.

thanks,
alan
alan@msai.com


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:06:10 -0400
From: DscribeDC@AOL.COM
Subject: Spiritualized Live? Pure Bliss!


At last it is announced!  An actual Spiritualized headlining tour in the
States.  I couldn't be happier.

After spending the past two years opening up for bands that could not hold a
candle to them on a live stage (JMC, Siouxee), Mr. Pierce & Co. are finally
going to get a chance to top off the bill.  Don't know about you folks, but I
think that the Spiritualized sets I saw on the "Rollercoaster USA" tour and
the last Siouxee tour were among the very best, most moving and cathartic
I've seen in years.  Just when you thought the hype machine had swallowed
rock and roll and spit up "entertainment," a Spiritualized comes along who
helps you remember what about music took your breath away in the first place.
 Their shows really shone, particularly in comparison with the short,
fumbling, stingy, constipated sets that EAR/Sonic Boom/Spectrum have put on
in DC in recent months, shows for which Pete Kember should have his visa
permanently revoked.

What a pity they couldn't get Labradford to open.  Now those would be some
"Good Times"...

Dave G.

Serviert.

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:34:56 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations


> that, overall, i tmight not happen. (And it did; we're here--so it seems
> simultaneously very likely and extrmely unlikely, for different reasons)

        Circular, circular, circular to the last! "Well it MUST have
happened, because, *hyuk* -- here we are!" I'm not saying Anselm's
"Proof" isn't circular in its own way, but you fail miserably in
providing a rational alternative.

> Well, among other things, I think you're overlooking the vastness of
> *number*. Huh? Let's put it this way: if the odds against any given event
> are, say 10^55 to 1 (that's "ten to the 55th power"), it's *very*
> unlikely that that even will occur, right? Yes--but now take 10^55

        ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
of the universe--which we know is of finite age--not that it matters,
since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.

= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters    =

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:13:31 -0700
From: Brandon Capps (bcapps@PRIMENET.COM)
Subject: Re: Band names


well actually...the pale saints took their name from a song by Eyeless In
Gaza (from the excellent album "pale hands i loved so well" / released
1982 on cherry red u.k. / unitone norway).  ian masters and graeme
naysmith are said to have had a like interest in eyeless in gaza when they
first started playing together. f.y.i.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
                             brandon capps
                             p.o. box 1483
                            tempe, az 85280
                                 u.s.a.
                           bcapps@primenet.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Ron Jost wrote:

> I'm not sure if this discussion was limited to bands that got their
> names from other bands' songs, but, for what it's worth, I think Pale
> Saints got their name from a Stephane Mallarme poem called "Saint."
> The poem is about a "musician of silence" and reminds me a lot of
> Pale Saints' music.  Also, does anyone know where Red House
> Painters got their name from?
>


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:08:44 BST
From: Nigel Sinfield (nige@WG.ICL.CO.UK)
Subject: re DCD


> There's also the Sisters of Mercy from the Leonard Cohen song, "The
> Sisters of Mercy."

I've often wondered whether A Flock of Seagulls got their name from
Toiler on the Sea by the Stranglers.  Anyone know?

Nige

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:21:07 -0400
From: Roy Burns (RBNRy@AOL.COM)
Subject: FTWW for trade-sies (and more)


I have a copy of FTWW available for trade only. E-mail me personally with
anything rare 4AD. I also have that Scheer 7" and a copy of Joe Friday 7"
that I may also be willing to part with. Some main things that I am looking
for are:

1. Liquorice ESP remixes promo (remixes by Warren Defever)
2. "And Dog Bones too" sampler
3. Kristin Hersh "Hips" UK promo
4. Pretty much anything on the FACTORY label that I dont' have (7"s esp.)
5. 4AD 7"s that I don't have (give me you offers)
6. or any rare promos (is there an Air Miami promo?)

Please try to be mint or near mint and remember e to me (not the list).

Gracias,

RBNRy@aol.com

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:40:08 -0400
From: David Heath (dave@AMIL.JHU.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations

              

Micah Newman writes:

>        ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
>determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
>of the universe--which we know is of finite age--not that it matters,
>since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
>outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.
>

Well, since this is being discussed here, am I correct in assuming these
are the lyrics to some new Air Miami track?

--
dave heath
dave@amil.jhu.edu

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:16:29 -0500
From: kylexene@TEZCAT.COM
Subject: Re: the real death of rock and roll


>> other "side" of the CD consists of a lot of South American shamen
>> shouting and grunting, and something by Timothy Leary which I still
>> haven't got round to listening to yet - there's something about Leary I
>> find oddly repellent, but I can't put my finger on it.
>
>  i'll tell you what's up with leary...he's a brilliant man and a looney
>  toon...that is why he is so repellent, as you say. acid guru turned
>  cyberpunk grandpa...after all these years, he's worn thin and
>  outstayed his welcome...
>
>> Scorn don't
>> really do much for me
>
>
>  i rather like the scorn tracks...probably moreso over the seefeel
>  ones...
>
>
>  k-j  ...she has your ice cold Nu Grape...


me too...I thought the Scorn cut along with the 2nd Seefeel song were the
best cuts on the CD.....

stylised deformity..don't look back,you were dead from the
beginning-Godflesh

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:32:22 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule


You wrote:
>
>Current 4AD release schedule
>
>9-10    SCHEER 'Schism' 12"/CD - UK
>9-10    THE AMPS 'Tipp City' 12"/CD - UK
>16-1    MOJAVE (3) 'Ask Me Tomorrow' LP/CD - US
>16-1    HEIDI BERRY untitled new LP - US
>30-10  THE AMPS 'Empty Glasses' - US
>?-10    THE AMPS 'PACER' LP
>9-10    AIR MIAMI 'Fuck You Tiger' 12"/CD - UK (check with TEENBEAT
for
>availability at possibly far less than the import price... and postage
>payed!!!)
>22-2     HOPE HULL 'Life In Beautiful Hope Hull' 10" -  German
>
Hope
>Hull
>
what kind of date are 16-1, 30-10 and 22-2?  me thinks you should
specify the type of dating you use.  some people are not familiar with
international dating of day before month!  at elast put the whole thing
such as 16-1-96, or something.  now i've confused myself so much i
gotta headringer.

cheers and flowers, euthelene

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:08:57 +0100
From: p.r.green@IC.AC.UK
Subject: Trades/sale


I have a selection of 4AD stuff on vinyl for sale or trade including :

Lonely is an Eyesore, deluxes Lmt edition - fold out sleave incl.  large
booklet.

Two rare pixies promos circa the Doolittle period.  One is a live album, the
other album tracks - both onesided.

Cocteau Twins - live albums/peel sessions ' Scream' and 'Lovers are Mortal'
                + interview picture disc. Pink Opaque.

Also alot of the 4Ad back Catalogue on vinyl prior to 1991.

Enquiries / offers to pgreen@bio.ic.ac.uk not this list.

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:49:24 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@nsi.edu)
Subject: Re: xmal deutschland help

              Sep 1995 21:40:12 CST)

>>>Where in hell did you get this?  Is it not out of print?  I have been
>>>trying to locate a copy forever.  All I have is a bad tape of Tocsin that
>>>someone made for me.  I have heard of only 3 other albums besides Tocsin,
>>>but the only two I have ever seen or heard are Tocsin and Fetish.  Fetish
>>>is pretty good too, although I think Tocsin is better.
>
>Um, it's like called like a 4AD like, catalog.  like, use it. . .
>

Um, it's like, not everyone of us has, or, like is aware of, like, how
to get the catalogue in the first place (or even if we did, we wouldn't
want to pay catalogue prices anyways).

Perhaps a pointer to such things would be useful in the future.  Also
in the future, lowering your cockiness level would be nice.

--Otterley

--
 |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_
 |   Internet: mfischer@nsi.edu            The Neurosciences Institute   |
()   Phone: 619.626.2000  Pager: 619.632.3201            San Diego, CA   |


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:04:24 -0400
From: Larry Koch (larry@INTERLOG.COM)
Subject: band names, atheism aplenty


>catherine wheel was the name of a book in the 50's and a medeveal torture
>device that they used to torture st. catherine with attempting to tear her
>limbs from her body.

hence it's also the name of a type of firework that spins...

>No, actually, Slowdive came from a dream Niel (the male singer) had once.
>He dreamt of two words, Slowdive and Slowburn.  This is according to an
>Alternative Press interview I read.

I've read that a number of times, so it's probably true (either that or
they're lying through their teeth every time!). Rachel is apparently the
only Siouxsie fan in the band - the others hate them. Personally, I think
bands named after other bands' songs are a bad idea - it's almost as if the
influences are too obvious that way. BTW, can someone tell me what Mojave's
lineup is and when the album will be released in the UK/Europe?

Zach, posting zealously:
>a note to all atheists... i accept your beliefs but mine tell me that science
>is mostly human bullshit. where do emotions come from? the great spirit
>watches over all.

Atheism doesn't necessarily have to do with science. Just because you don't
believe in (a) god doesn't mean you have to put all your faith in science
and/or rationality. Emotions come from inside us, not from some invisible
thing up in the sky for which we supposedly have to abandon our free will
and obey for its own sake.

Larry, wondering how much more off-topic we can get after the
Smurfs/metaphysics thread

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:40:47 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations

              "thad.engeling@CCQM.NATINST.COM" at Sep 21, 95 10:37 am

>
> > because certainly a planet with an ecosystem in which hundreds
> > of billions of difference species live, and a human form whose incredible
> > order and detail defies the understanding of the minds which occupy those
> > bodies, to come about all by themselves is emphatically against all the
> > laws of nature. And starting with this information, which we KNOW, the next
> > logical conclusion is certainly not "there's no God, all these molecules
> > organized themselves despite the 2nd law of Thermodynamics".
>
> This same old tired argument.
> All this does is reveal your misunderstanding of the 2nd law of
> Thermodynamics. Read some serious books on physics. The second law
> does not prohibit organization on a localized basis.
> All it says is that in a CLOSED system, the TOTAL entropy increases
> over time.
> There are lots of good books that describe the various theories that
> are being developed that attempt to describe the evolution of the
> universe as we understand it.
> The solar system is an incredibly complicated system, but it's development
> from "chaos" is well desribed. This does not go against the second law,
> although on the surface it may appear to do so.
> Some good books to read:
> Dreams of a Final Theory - Steve Weinberg
> The Emporor's New Mind - Roger Penrose
> A Brief History of Time - (the name escapes right now)
> The Mind of God - Paul Davies

Gee, could someone point me in the direction of 4AD-L, it's
a mailing list dedicated to the music of the 4AD record label and
I seem to be lost here in atheists-r-us.


kent
kjv@mti.cdc.com
55billion philosophical arguments served and still counting...


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:09:15 EDT
From: "Holly A. Hopey" (bio4hah@CABELL.VCU.EDU)
Subject: Re: more music to sleep to

              Pietrusko" at Sep 20, 95 6:13 pm

Michael Brook's Cobal Blue always puts me to sleep.  In fact, I've
rarely heard the end of the album because I've drifted off by then.

Holly


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:55:10 -0600
From: mesocyclone (soon@UNM.EDU)
Subject: Re: DeadCanDance


  Where are all the MBV fans?  Over on the MBV list, of course!  Come on
over and visit us!  We're at majordomo@listserv.com and then you
"subscribe mbv". and the should get you there!

******************************************************************************

                                   A.I.D.S.
              We are all infected because we are all affected.........

                                  *********
                     Will Coucheron-Aamot a.k.a. soon@unm.edu
  MBV, medicine, seefeel, flying saucer attack, slowdive, lovesliescrushing
******************************************************************************

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:00:26 -0600
From: mesocyclone (soon@UNM.EDU)
Subject: lovesliescrushing


  Awhile ago, somebody posted that they had an address for or a link to
the llc homepgae.  Could that person repost that info?  I have finally
figured out this surfing thing and would like to take a peek.  Thanks in
advance.

******************************************************************************

                                   A.I.D.S.
              We are all infected because we are all affected.........

                                  *********
                     Will Coucheron-Aamot a.k.a. soon@unm.edu
  MBV, medicine, seefeel, flying saucer attack, slowdive, lovesliescrushing
******************************************************************************


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:58:48 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: Re: Trades/sale

              <960.9509221308@bicdf>

anyone please send me an obscure list. im getting bored with listening to
them for 6 years now.

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:28:33 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule


>what kind of date are 16-1, 30-10 and 22-2?  me thinks you should
>specify the type of dating you use.  some people are not familiar with
>international dating of day before month!  at elast put the whole thing
>such as 16-1-96, or something.  now i've confused myself so much i
>gotta headringer.

It's not confusing for dates after the 12th of any month since that date
doesn't exist in our US system.  In this case it was quite clear which
system was used, why should Europeans cater to our backwards system.  It
makes more sense to progress from smallest unit of time (day) to largest
(year).

-cz

___<<<<<<<<<*********ckemnitz@students.wisc.edu********>>>>>>>>>___

"I pass death with the dying, and birth with the new-washed babe. . . . and
am not contained between my hat and boots..."     -Walt Whitman

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:01:21 -0400
From: "(Zach Martinchek)" (X95MARTINCHE@WMICH.EDU)
Subject: Re: band names, atheism aplenty

              <199509221111.HAA24939@gold.interlog.com>

what's for dinner tonite, spiderman?

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:56:08 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule

              a/k/a Kayleigh" at Sep 21, 95 12:32 pm

clueless wrote:
> >
> what kind of date are 16-1, 30-10 and 22-2?  me thinks you should
> specify the type of dating you use.  some people are not familiar with
> international dating of day before month!  at elast put the whole thing
> such as 16-1-96, or something.  now i've confused myself so much i
> gotta headringer.

Course, some of those people might figure it out since there is only
12 months in a year.  duh



kent
kjv@mti.cdc.com
a wallflower no more

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:08:54 -0400
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Re: Twinlights


I managed to get my hands on an advanced promo copy of Twinlights yester-
day. (Lawren, since you specifically asked: It's just a 4-song EP. The
full-length LP isn't due out until early '96.)

I never would have expected what I heard from my headphones when I put in
the tape...I know Mr. e. had said "Madre de Dios" when he heard this, and
he's so right.

Imagine you're sitting in a bar, kinda like the one in Blue Velvet where
Isabella Rosselini sang "Blue Velvet", only not necessarily so weird. All
there is is a piano (Simon), and acoustic guitar probably with nylon strings
(Robin), and a little 5-feet tall chanteuse at a big microphone. That is
how naked and intimate Twinlights is. It's utterly beautiful.

"Rilkean Heart" and "Half Gifts" -- two heartbreakingly honest songs --
are going to appear on Milk and Kisses in a radically different form. They
are also the two songs featured in the short film which is to be released
at the same time as Twinlights. "Golden Vein" is very similar to something
one might have heard on Victorialand, only without as many effects.
The acoustic version of "Pink Orange Red" is lovely. The "lyrics" haven't
changed at all, they're just MUCH quieter. The song is dominated by piano.

"Rilkean Heart" sounds VERY MUCH like it could be a Kate Bush song.

Listening to this, one realized what a talented musician Simon is. Not that
that hasn't always been obvious, but it's more apparent now, I think. He's
a brilliant pianist. I see now why Ivo had Simon handle so much of the
chord arrangments for "Filigree and Shadow".

The guitar is all acoustic and, like I said, probably with nylon strings.
Simple, delicate pluckings and very little, if any, strumming.

Liz is, on this recording at least, dealing a lot with her relationship
with Robin. That's my guess anyway. Not all the lyrics are as clear as
they were on Four-Calendar Cafe, but the one's which are clear deal with
this subject sort of blatantly, in addition to other things, I guess.
She has made LITTLE use of overdubs and multi-tracking on her voice here.
It's all raw. Maybe the slightest effect on her voice to smooth things
out, but it's almost not noticeable.

Well, enough of me running my mouth about it.  I promise whomever buys
this that you will be completely surprised. It does _NOT_ sound like
anything they have _EVER_ done before.


Mike
iceblink@delphi.com

"It's an old game of love; When you can't have me you want me because you
know that you're not risking anything...

(Half Gifts)


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:53:31 CDT
From: "Kent J. Vanderwaal" (kjv@ANDROS.CIM.CDC.COM)
Subject: Re: the real death of rock and roll

              "kylexene@TEZCAT.COM" at Sep 21, 95 7:16 pm

> >> shouting and grunting, and something by Timothy Leary which I still
> >> haven't got round to listening to yet - there's something about Leary I
> >> find oddly repellent, but I can't put my finger on it.
> >
> >  i'll tell you what's up with leary...he's a brilliant man and a looney
> >  toon...that is why he is so repellent, as you say. acid guru turned
> >  cyberpunk grandpa...after all these years, he's worn thin and
> >  outstayed his welcome...

I read something about Leary having cancer and he is thinking of
an assisted suicide so he doesn't have to linger (there's a
Cranberries song in there somewhere) and something about freezing
his brain.  "Timothy Leary's dead, no no no, he's just outside,
looking in", what a bunch of hippy crap.


kent
kjv@mti.cdc.com
the soul whirling somewhere?
the cat vomitting somewhere!

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:28:25 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: m7x


You wrote:

>i hope that too many people deleted this message as soon as they saw
>the message line, myself being a huge area, m7x and lanterna fan
>but the great henry frane of all of the above
>is visiting and could be available to answer some questions
>about the third m7x album coming out on roadrunner
>(soon hopefully! or at least in 6 months)
>so if there is anything you ever wondered you can e-mail me before
friday
>and i can see what can be done
>
>gebeaux

having gone to school in champaign, i witenessed many a Mx7 show, so
i'm curious if any of the members are still in school and if so what
will happen after that hurdle is jumped.  many bands in champaign met
their undeserved demise because of graduation.  also curious how being
on a label that is know for metal and heavier rock bands handles a
ethreal band like mx7, do they get appropriate support or am i totally
off on this one, could happen ya know.

cheers, euthelene

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:52:21 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: Current 4AD release schedule


> what kind of date are 16-1, 30-10 and 22-2?  me thinks you should
> specify the type of dating you use.  some people are not familiar with
> international dating of day before month!  at elast put the whole thing
> such as 16-1-96, or something.  now i've confused myself so much i
> gotta headringer.

        Obviously, since there's no such thing as the 16th month, 30th
month, or 22nd month, those must be the dates! :p And that other number?
Well by process of elimination, those must be the months! How would
including the year help? In the American date system, the three numbers
are out of hierarchical order, in the European one (the one currently
under close scrutination) they are.

= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters    =


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:56:09 -0700
From: Sharkless girl a/k/a Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: m7x


You wrote:
>
>i prefer boxers lined with staples...an SM kick
>
maybe you should be on the alt.sex.boxers.sm.fetish newsgroup?  all i
can say is youch.  :)

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:17:05 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Cocteau Twins release schedule


22-9-95
Twinlights is released next Tuesday, 26 Sep (26-9),
which probably means the UK release date is Monday.
Only two or three days, people! Start the countdown!

The next EP, Otherness, which is a Cocteaus/Seefeel
collaboration, comes out on 21 Nov (21-11).

The album does not have a set release date yet, but I was
told "probably February" (xx-2).

brant, 2-11-xx
|     Brant Nelson | 1817 Corinth Ave. #10 | open your eyes
| Dewdrops Records | LA, CA 90025-5567     | to northern skies
| Uncommon music that deserves to be heard |
| http://www.astro.ucla.edu/students/nelson/dewdrops.html

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:38:46 -0400
From: Alex Wolfson (ajw6@COLUMBIA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Lisa Germano "Cry Wolf" promo cd for sale


On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Gil Gershman wrote:

> Hi -
>
> I just found this - there must be some devoted fan who has been trying to get
> a copy of Lisa Germano's "Cry Wolf" CD - all tracks are either remixed from
> the LP versions or non-LP altogether. . . It must be long out of print by
> now.
>
> Here's the info:
>
> PRO-CD-7347
> LISA GERMANO - "CRY WOLF"
> 4AD US 1992
>
> 1. Cry Wolf (edit) 4:07
> 2. The Mirror is Gone (previously unreleased) 2:41
> 3. Cancer of Everything (remix) 3:44
> 4. Sexy Little Girl Princess (remix) 3:45
>
> If you're interested, make me an offer. E-mail me: TooPurist@AOL.com
>
> Thanks
> Gil
>
>
>
I have one too if there is additional interest.

AW
*******************************************************************************
* Columbia Institute for Tele-Information * 809 Uris Hall * New York NY 10027 *
*******************************************************************************
* ph 212 854 4222 * fx 212 932 7816 * wb www.ctr.columbia.edu/citi/index.html *
*******************************************************************************

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:01:24 -0800
From: "Heileson, Thom" (heilts1@MACGWX.GHC.ORG)
Subject: AFX/XMAL/CT/Slowdive


>the cds. i like to fall asleep to, are Pygmalion (hell, i don't even
>make it to 'crazy for you'), the RACHEL'S- handwriting cd, and my
>apollo ambient comp.... biosphere and global comm. back to back,
>perfect.

I find Aphex Twin's Selected Ambient Works II quite nice sleeping music.

-----

>Actually,according to what I remember from my German(I haven't used it in
>about two years)the word xmal means "times"or "to multiply".So.in
>essence,Xmal Deutschland translated in the true German would be
>"Deutschland Deutschland".(Don't quote me on this,gang.)If nothing else,the
>name wouldn't have been out of place at that time:Rema Rema,Duran
>Duran,Mr.Mister...

I thought I heard a while back that Xmal Deutschland translated to "Ten times
Germany." In retrospect, both their name and Modern English seem oddly
nationalistic...

-----

>Actually, there have been a few bands around that have done this before.
>Like Shakespear's Sister from The Smiths' "Shakespeare's Sister", and I
>_think_ Chatherine Wheel from a Simple Minds song (although the name for
>both may have come from some other source originally).  Just wondering if
>anyone else knew any other interesting ones...

Well, people probably already know that Cocteau Twins took their name from an
early Simple Minds song. It seems likely that Slowdive took their name from
the song of the same name on Siouxsie and the Banshees' album _A Kiss In The
Dreamhouse_. Then there's Ex-Lion Tamers, the band that only plays an exact
replica of the the 1977 Wire album Pink Flag. (Their name is the title to a
Pink Flag track, natch.)

    + ---    Thom S. Heileson
   + +-             oR                 [antiAxiomaticism unlimited]
    + -    phASER@cyberspace.com

           heilts1@macgw.ghc.org

           "I'll give you an example, typically.
    It's less complicated than it simply should be." - Wire


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:22:05 -0500
From: Terry Collins (ispy@OAK.NCC.UMN.EDU)
Subject: Lisa Gerrard - Minneapolis

              a/k/a Kayleigh" at Sep 21, 95 12:28:25 pm

>
> cheers, euthelene
>
I sent a message to the 4AD list in response to someone asking about
people attending the Lisa Gerrard show in Minneapolis on Oct. 16th.
Was it you, euthelene?  Whomever it was, I believe I forgot to put
my e-mail addy in the message.  How silly.  Problem corrected below.

   --iSpy--
   ispy@oak.ncc.umn.edu


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:45:36 -0600
From: "Page S. Tuminello" (pst@BASTE.MAGIBOX.NET)
Subject: Re: refutations


Hi all. This is my first post to this list. Sorry it has nothing to do with 4AD.

Jeffrey Norman wrote intelligently:

>On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Micah Newman wrote:
>
>>         Maybe another way to put it is this: people who don't believe in God
>> don't do so because of objectivity. It's a decision, not based upon
[faulty argument deleted]
>> organized themselves despite the 2nd law of Thermodynamics". So it makes
>> a lot more sense for God to definitely exist. At least to me.
>>
>
>Well, among other things, I think you're overlooking the vastness of
>*number*. Huh? Let's put it this way: if the odds against any given event
>are, say 10^55 to 1 (that's "ten to the 55th power"), it's *very*
>unlikely that that even will occur, right? Yes--but now take 10^55
>*different* events, each of which have the same unlikely odds: what are
>the odds that *at least one of them* will occur? 1 to 1, assuming no
>relation between any of the events that either encourage or discourage
>any of the other events. To be more specific: the odds are 365 to 1
>against today being your birthday (never mind leap years). But, given
>that this list has about that many members, the odds are quite good that
>today is *someone's* birthday. (Happy birthday, whoever you are.)
>
>We're talking billions & billions of years, in immeasurable space.
>Granted that life of such complexity is unlikely--but that doesn't mean
>that, overall, i tmight not happen. (And it did; we're here--so it seems
>simultaneously very likely and extrmely unlikely, for different reasons)
>
>I suspect some mathematecian will correct my example above (and some
>other English major will correct my sloppy spelling)--but I still think the
>general point holds.

I try below. I am a physicist.

>At any rate, God as creator is not necessarily the same thing as
>God-will-smite-you-dead-for-touching-your-willie--and it's the latter god
>that most Christian religions seem inclined to worship.

Well said. This has been my observation also.

>Jeffrey Norman                                                   "matches..."
>University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee                                "candles..."
>Dept. of English & Comp. Lit.                                    "matches..."
>
>
>"buns?"

Although I doubt few people here care, I would like to point out the
correct method of calculating the probability of at least one success in an
n-fold repetition of a single event, where the probability for the success
of the single event is 1/n.



This type of experiment is described using the binomial distribution. In
any elementary statistics book you will find the relevant equation for the
probability P of exactly x successes occurring:

                        n!
              P(x) = --------(p^x)(q^(n-x))
                     (n-x)!x!

where   x = number of successes
        n = number of trials
        p = probability of success in a single (independent) trial
        q = probability of failure in a single (independent) trial = 1 - p

Note that for x = 0, the first two terms are both equal to 1:

         n!         n!        n!    n!
      -------- = -------- = ----- = -- = 1
      (n-x)!x!   (n-0)!0!   n!(1)   n!

and

                p^x = p^0 = 1

and we are left with

                P(0) = (q^(n-x))

Let's look at 3 examples with n smaller than 10^55 so as not to make
incorrect approximations of P(0) (as I initially did!) and to see a pattern

For p = 1/1000, n = 1000, and x = 0:

    q = 1 - p = 1 - (1/1000) = 1 - 0.001 = 0.999,

and, to 8 digits past the decimal point in P(0),

    P(0) = (0.999)^(1000-0) = (0.999)^1000 = 0.36769542

For p = 1/(10^6), n = 10^6, and x = 0:

    q = 1 - (1/(10^6)) = 0.999999,

    P(0) = (0.999999)^(10^6) = 0.36787926

For p = 1/(10^9), n = 10^9, and x = 0:

    q = 1 - (1/(10^9)) = 0.999999999,

    P(0) = (0.999999999)^(10^9) = 0.36787944

I haven't pondered over this very long and could be wrong, but it seems
that we are approaching a limit here. This limit on P(0) as n approaches
infinity is

    P(0) -> 1/e = 0.367879441171...

where e (= 2.71828...) is the base of natural logarithms. (Indeed, that
limit is one way of calculating e that I remember.)

Since P(0) is the probability of NO successes (complex life forms
developing on a planet or whatever), the probability of AT LEAST ONE
success is 1 - P(0). In the limit as n approaches infinity, this
probability approaches

    1 - P(0) -> 1 - 1/e = 0.632120558829...

And so, in summary, the probability of at least one success in an n-fold
repetition of single equivalent independent events, where the probability
for the success of an individual event is 1/n, approaches around 63.21% as
n becomes very large.

--Page

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:06:27 -0700
From: Ivo Lorelei -{Gothique Extraordinaire}- (beswick@chaph.usc.edu)
Subject: A little tidbit on the LSD/F&D/TttS show....


For those interested, last night was the Love Spirals Downwards/Faith &
Disease/Trance to the Sun show at the Troubadour in Hollywood.  Having
contacts and good friends, I got myself and 5 friends in and up to the
little VIP lounge that I didn't even know existed, and here's what we
experienced.

Trance to the Sun:   Sucked.  Balls.  They were really bad.  The music
was an early 80s Cocteau rip-off with WAY too much reverb and horrible
low (in the tradition of all Tess recording artists) female vocals.
Everyone I spoke to agreed that it was awful.

betwixt Trance to the Sun and Faith & Disease, I got to sit down and have
a nice long conversation with Susan Jennings (from Projekt) and Everett
(from World Domination).  This was probably the highlight of my night.
Susan was very sweet [she didn't remember me from the barbecue until I
mentioned that I go to the USC theatre school which Lucian from Black
Tape had applied to and I had spoken with Lucian about at the barbecue]
and had a lot to say.  For those of you who have heard rumour that she
left Projekt, it's not true.  She is no longer doing mail order, but is
still doing photography for Projekt and apparently she and Sam
(Rosenthal, that is) are friends again.  Everett said that the new Drain
the Doves is a lot tighter than the last demo, but that remains to be seen.

Faith & Disease:  Nice... pretty female vocals, but really really
sleepy.  I was not surprised to find out that this was a Darkwave
distributed band.  I spent their whole set reaching out the window from
the VIP lounge trying to steal the "N" from Trance to the Sun off of the
big sign, but when I finally got it, it was too big to fit in my box, so
I put it back.

Love Spirals Downwards:  Wow.  This made the whole night worth it.  I was
extremely sleepy by the time this band came on, but it was SOOOO worth
it.  Suzanne is charming, cute, and like Susan told me, VERY true to the
vocal sound of the recordings.  It's amazing.  They even did a Slowdive
cover (although I don't know which one, my friend just said "Why didn't
they mention that that one song they sang was a Slowdive song??" **SHRUG**).
There was a really annoying guy who kept taking my picture who yelled out
several times "Whopper with Cheese!" and Suzanne promised to get him one,
which kinda pissed my off cuz I was real hungry.  Oh, and someone handed
Suzanne a review of their album and she said "I read this review on the
internet where they said we needed keyboards.  Don't post that shit, it
pisses me off."  What a charmer. ;)

so, that was pretty much it.  If you haven't seen any of these bands,
definitely see LSD, definitely DON'T see Trance to the Sun (and don't get
anything at the Trance to the Sun record release party at the Wake
tonight), and Faith & Disease you can see or not see, it's not much of a
life-changing experience.

thank you and good night....er, day....

Ivo

"I'll fuck you up the ass...just for a laugh..."


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:45:41 -0400
From: Christina Johnson (br713@freenet.carleton.ca)
Subject: band names (catherine wheel)


someone mentioned that a catherine wheel is a torture device - this is
true, however, when asked in an interview on the Wedge (MuchMusic), the
band said that it was a reference to the firecracker, not the torture
device.  i'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet.

c'est tout...

christina  (who desperately wants this "does God exist/where did we come
from?" thread to end!!  it should have gone to private e-mail a long time
ago, yes?)

--
                          | Christine, the strawberry girl   "Christine"
    Christina Johnson     | Christine, banana split lady      [Siouxsie
br713@freenet.carleton.ca | Christine, the strawberry girl      & the
                          | Christine, sees her faces unfurl  Banshees]

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:17:46 CDT
From: Steven W Hill (shill@HARPER.CC.IL.US)
Subject: Revelatory music


It's been years since I've heard a song that I thought was absolutely
brilliant upon first listening.

Many songs I think are good and then improve with listening, many songs I
don't like, many that I think are GREAT and stay that way... but an
absolute musical revelation on the first listen?

The most recent one for me was Pale Saints' "Hunted".
The next closest was Skinny Puppy's "Knowhere?"

What songs have others declared brilliant upon first listening?
 --
[][]  [][] Steve Hill                     Email:shill@harper.cc.il.us
[]  []  [] Network Technician             Voice:708-925-6273
           William Rainey Harper College    Fax:708-925-6030
[]  []  [] 1200 West Algonquin Road        Page:708-962-0430
[][]  [][] Palatine IL 60067-7398 "Me? Not allowed? I'm allowed everywhere."

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:30:18 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: Bands named after songs [was: DeadCanDance]


At 2:13 AM 9/21/95, Chadwick Dorton wrote:
>No, actually, Slowdive came from a dream Niel (the male singer) had once.
>He dreamt of two words, Slowdive and Slowburn.  This is according to an
>Alternative Press interview I read.

Nevertheless there _is_ a Siouxie & the Banshees song called "Slowdive",
from "A Kiss In the Dreamhouse" (1982). The live version of this with Rob't
Smith on guitar, on "Nocturne" (1983?) is probably the best thing they ever
did...
(Given Slowdive's influences I find it hard to believe that Neil was not
familiar with this song!)

Let us not forget that the Cocteau Twins took their name from a very early
Simple Minds song (whose lyrics changed to omit that phrase before it was
recorded.)

What else? There are a lot of bands named after songs. A Certain Ratio got
their name from a Brian Eno song from "Taking Tiger Mountain (By
Strategy)". "Looking for a certain ratio / Someone must have left it /
Underneath the carpet".

__________
Jens Alfke|__________________     "In this story we sit down on Luna Bridge
           jens@mooseyard.com|     And catch snow in our cupped hands
 __________________________        And music is coming from the houses
 http://www.inow.com/~jens/        Or it sings inside me. I begin to mend."
                                                             --Karen Peris


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:20:44 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: cocteau origin FAQ


> concerning bands that have taken their names from other bands' songs, i think
> you may have confused catherine wheel with the cocteau twins who took their
> name from an obscure simple minds song (so i've read. i've never actually
> heard the song or anything!) or perhaps both bands did...

There's a Simple Minds song called "Colors Fly and Catherine Wheel"
on the New Gold Dream album.

> has anyone ever heard that simple minds song?

The song "The Cocteau Twins" was one they had in their live show
before their first album Life In A Day. It was eventually recorded
with different lyrics and the title changed to "No Cure" for
Life In A Day. The music remained the same. Probably the only place the
original song exists is on a live tape Robin Guthrie has, and Robin tells
me that the original lyrics were about "two gay men who were into
Jean Cocteau," thus the origin of the rumor that
that's where the Cocteaus got their name, "from two gay friends
who were into Jean Cocteau," something which Robin said
himself in an interview ages ago. Well, it's true in sort of a skewed
sense, but it's really that they took their name from this old
unreleased Simple Minds song.


|     Brant Nelson | 1817 Corinth Ave. #10 | open your eyes
| Dewdrops Records | LA, CA 90025-5567     | to northern skies
| Uncommon music that deserves to be heard |
| http://www.astro.ucla.edu/students/nelson/dewdrops.html

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:09:13 -0600
From: ".bigloveeyes." (vonminde@RINTINTIN.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: Twinlights


On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear wrote:

> I managed to get my hands on an advanced promo copy of Twinlights yester-
> day. (Lawren, since you specifically asked: It's just a 4-song EP. The
> full-length LP isn't due out until early '96.)
>
> I never would have expected what I heard from my headphones when I put in
> the tape...I know Mr. e. had said "Madre de Dios" when he heard this, and
> he's so right.

this is the best message this list has produced all week.  thanks mike!
i'm getting incredibly excited to run out and buy this next week.  now
for my little question.....today when talking to the music director at the
radio station i volunteer at it was mentioned that the capitol rep.
wasn't really sure when the retail date of _twinlights_ is.  apparently
she said it keeps getting pushed back.....does this mean that the US release
date has changed?  my thought was that the recordrep. was clueless and
that everything's all set for next week......i hope i'm right.



.theoutofbodyexperiencediscussionontheLPDlistisbetterthanouratheismone.
                                                                .mark.

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:53:38 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: Seaya/Laetitia, German, Lush list, obligatory atheism .sig


At 1:13 PM 9/21/95, ""  wrote:
>a note to all atheists... i accept your beliefs but mine tell me that science
>is mostly human bullshit.

It's not a matter of belief. Science consists of watching, producing an
explanation that seems to fit the facts you've observed, and waiting to see
if any future observations contradict your explanation (in which case you
need to come up with a new one.)
Everything is built up from that. No one "invented" the law of gravity;
they made measurements of the way objects actually move in the real world,
came up with some formulas that match those measurements and predict new
ones, and refined the formulas as new things came up. We didn't invent it
any more than we invented the Big Dipper. Both are intrinsic in the
universe.
The great thing about science is that it works whether or not you believe
in it, and produces real results. The same cannot be said for any brand of
religion. Medicine has in the past century eliminated the once-dreaded
disease of smallpox from the face of the earth. Millenia of prayer didn't
have any effect.

> where do emotions come from?

A good question. AI and cognitive science have some ideas but nothing solid
yet. However, the fact that no good explanation exists yet doesn't mean
anything. It's certainly no basis for "proving" the existence of some
"great spirit".

__________
Jens Alfke|__________________     "In this story we sit down on Luna Bridge
           jens@mooseyard.com|     And catch snow in our cupped hands
 __________________________        And music is coming from the houses
 http://www.inow.com/~jens/        Or it sings inside me. I begin to mend."
                                                             --Karen Peris

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:07:59 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations


At 4:34 PM 9/21/95, Micah Newman wrote:
>        ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
>determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
>of the universe--which we know is of finite age--

What calculations? By whom? What units are you measuring "order" in?
Self-organizing systems can create large amounts of order very quickly.

>not that it matters,
>since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
>outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.

You can believe that if you like, but there's really no evidence for it and
much against. Artificial-life experiments, although crude (I'm speaking of
"Tierra" in particular) have shown that you can set up a fairly generic
system that grows according to incredibly simple laws, and quickly evolve
organisms that reproduce, compete for resources, kill each other,
parasititize, symbiotize, ...

You're acting as though there were some kind of serious debate in
intellectual circles about this. There isn't. It's a bunch of
fundamentalist Christians whose a priori belief in the literal truth of
every punctuation mark in the Bible forces them into a particular
viewpoint, against nearly every other serious thinker of the last 75 (if
not 150) years. Name your sources; Thom and I have already given you a
pretty good list of ours.

__________
Jens Alfke|__________________     "In this story we sit down on Luna Bridge
           jens@mooseyard.com|     And catch snow in our cupped hands
 __________________________        And music is coming from the houses
 http://www.inow.com/~jens/        Or it sings inside me. I begin to mend."
                                                             --Karen Peris

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:47:07 -0700
From: Jens Alfke (jens@INOW.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations


[No 4AD content.]

At 10:06 PM 9/20/95, Micah Newman wrote:
>        How valid is the comparison between "God" and "Smurfs"? You stray
>from the real point here.

Both are concepts that people have thought of in some detail. If you are
presupposing, before we get started in our argument, that there must be
some essential difference between "God" and whatever other concepts people
come up with, then you are presupposing the existence of God and your
entire argument is circular. Try to be more careful.

>        Maybe another way to put it is this: people who don't believe in God
>don't do so because of objectivity. It's a decision, not based upon
>rationality, because certainly a planet with an ecosystem in which hundreds
>of billions of difference species live, and a human form whose incredible
>order and detail defies the understanding of the minds which occupy those
>bodies, to come about all by themselves is emphatically against all the
>laws of nature. And starting with this information, which we KNOW, the next
>logical conclusion is certainly not "there's no God, all these molecules
>organized themselves despite the 2nd law of Thermodynamics". So it makes
>a lot more sense for God to definitely exist. At least to me.

If you want to drag science into this, know that you're using arguments
that few or no reputable scientists have bothered espousing since, oh, the
1700s. Since the Englightenment the general position among scientists and
philosophers has been that religion and science, whatever their relative
merits, do not directly interrelate. Arguments from religion and the Bible
cannot be used to establish scientific theories, and scientific/logical
observations cannot be used to argue about the existence or nature of God.
  In particular, your arguments about the impossibility of life and order
arising without divine intervention were pretty solidly refuted by
biologists dating back to Lamarck (1790s) with Darwin providing some extra
nails for the coffin.
  Given that the Earth is not a closed system (the Sun dumps enormous
amounts of energy into it) self-organization is entirely possible. All it
takes is reproduction with mutation; natural selection; and a long time.

These are totally mainstream points. You will not find disagreement with
them in the scientific or philosophical community, only within the closed
sphere of religious fundamentalists. If you really consider that you have
valid and obvious scientific arguments for God / against evolution, you're
deluding yourself.
  Nor are what I've presented necessarily atheistic viewpoints; many
scientists and philosophers are happy to believe in a God who created the
universe and its laws and then allowed those laws, including natural
selection, to take their course. (This is known as Deism. BTW, many of the
American founding fathers, such as Jefferson and Franklin, were staunch
Deists.)

Steven J. Gould, who explains evolution more clearly, and refutes the
creationist arguments more clearly, than anyone else I've read. Richard
Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" is also excellent.

__________
Jens Alfke|__________________     "In this story we sit down on Luna Bridge
           jens@mooseyard.com|     And catch snow in our cupped hands
 __________________________        And music is coming from the houses
 http://www.inow.com/~jens/        Or it sings inside me. I begin to mend."
                                                             --Karen Peris

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:37:52 -0500
From: Martin Wagner (hepcats@EDEN.COM)
Subject: Re: refutations


Pardon me. Hate to be a bore. What does this have to do with 4AD music?

Martin
not usually one to flame off-topic discussions, but this is a MAJOR waste
of bandwidth

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:03:50 -0700
From: nOISEgIRLY k-j and jOHN (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: the stars dance...burst...melt before our eyes...


> What songs have others declared brilliant upon first listening?

  how ghosts affect relationships - hnia
  the song of schizophrenia (hope/feathers/well) - hnia
  the homesick waltz - hnia
  darkglassdolleyes - lovesliescrushing
  blue singer - pram
  dead language - love spirals downwards
  hanging - moonshake
  song to the siren - tmc
  the spanglemaker - cocteau twins
  the host of seraphim - dcd
  keep your laws/off my body - dog faced hermans
  avalyn 1 & 2 - slowdive
  she calls - slowdive
  schizophrenia - sonic youth
  green light - sonic youth
  even the sea sides against us - disco inferno

  so many more...

  *k-j*  ...bruised, but not broken...


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:34:57 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: Revelatory music


Brilliant upon first listening:

Red House Painters - "Rollercoaster": staggeringly powerful and emotive.
Dead Can Dance - "The Host Of Seraphim": ditto
Soul Whirling Somewhere - "One Of These Days Some Eyes Will Be Opened":
        no words, a lone keyboard, but it speaks volumes. The pure
        *yearning* is definitely heard.
lovesliescrushing - "halo": definitely not an obvious choice for many,
        but this is the kind of thing that pushes my buttons. That *sound*!!
        It *must* be listened to at maximum volume. The whole album
        makes my heart race when I hear it.

I may post again if I think of any more...

= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters    =

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:20:56 -0700
From: Brant Dewdrops (nelson@EGGNEB.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU)
Subject: Re: LSD/F&D/TttS show


I agree with much of what Ivo Lorelei -{Gothique Extraordinaire}
said about the shows last night. LSD was wonderful and the crowd
loved them. I did too.

I wish I had recognized more of what F&D played, but what I did know
I really enjoyed. They did the Renaissance cover "Ashes Are Burning"
which was a nice surprise, but no "All Cats Are Grey" or "Louise".
"Amelius Unhappy" suffered from a too-quiet keyboard, but everything
else was very good.

I really did like Trance to the Sun! And so did a few others around me,
so they weren't universally loathed. At times the music reminded me
a bit of Lycia, but mostly it was the early Cocteaus, loud
guitar-bass-drum machine sound. I think they pulled it off
well, although I don't think it would be nearly as intense
on an album. Pat said the vocalist has a tendency to moan like
a half-dead cat, which oddly enough is meant as an honest description
rather than a complaint. Anyway, I liked it and I'll probably
buy their albums. I guess they appealed to the naive little goth in me.

|     Brant Nelson | 1817 Corinth Ave. #10 | open your eyes
| Dewdrops Records | LA, CA 90025-5567     | to northern skies
| Uncommon music that deserves to be heard |
| http://www.astro.ucla.edu/students/nelson/dewdrops.html


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:07:18 -0700
From: Micah Newman (mnewman@WESTMONT.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations


> Pardon me. Hate to be a bore. What does this have to do with 4AD music?

*sigh* -- absolutely nothing. It was all started by someone who chose to
attack my beliefs as expressed in a harmless little .sig  and then,
predictably everyone joined in with their 2 cents, valid or not, about what
an ignoramus I supposedly am. This crap about "no one has believed that
since the 17th century" carries no factual weight whatsoever. It's PC
science to the letter, the Official Version, all that.

> Martin
> not usually one to flame off-topic discussions, but this is a MAJOR waste
> of bandwidth

Yes, and I am quickly tiring of it too. Let us all stick to the music
from now on. This is all pointless. No one is going to convince anyone of
anything, and further argument is pointless.

= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:57:12 -0400
From: bruce levenstein (bruceL@INTERRAMP.COM)
Subject: Re: aUTECHRE.aMBER


>Buy their Garbage EP.  Tracks 3 and 4 are esp. cool for me.  Incubula is more
>electronicy.  Still good stuff but Amber is definetly better.
>
>
>
>Charles_Kim@brown.edu

i got the garbage ep. it's super cool. i liked it so much i rushed out to
buy incunabula. didn't like it nearly as much - way to 'normal' sounding.
have you heard the new ep or forthcoming cd yet?

-bruce

 ---------------------------------------------
 |   A is for AMY who fell down the stairs.  |
 ---------------------------------------------
 | bruce levenstein     brucel@interramp.com |
 ---------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:33:25 -0400
From: wendy lyon (wlyon@DELPHI.UMD.EDU)
Subject: Re: the stars dance...burst...melt before our eyes...


> > What songs have others declared brilliant upon first listening?

Primitive Painters - Felt
-----
wendy

"There's a very fine line between being artistic and being a dickhead"
                                                         --Peter Hook

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 05:01:45 +0100
From: Nick Mulder (n_mulder@BART.NL)
Subject: Re: refutations


>> Pardon me. Hate to be a bore. What does this have to do with 4AD music?
>
>*sigh* -- absolutely nothing. It was all started by someone who chose to
>attack my beliefs as expressed in a harmless little .sig  and then,
>predictably everyone joined in with their 2 cents, valid or not, about what
>an ignoramus I supposedly am. This crap about "no one has believed that
>since the 17th century" carries no factual weight whatsoever. It's PC
>science to the letter, the Official Version, all that.
>
>> Martin
>> not usually one to flame off-topic discussions, but this is a MAJOR waste
>> of bandwidth
>
>Yes, and I am quickly tiring of it too. Let us all stick to the music
>from now on. This is all pointless. No one is going to convince anyone of
>anything, and further argument is pointless.
>
>= "Wake up, see    \ If there's no God, why      + "Where unadmired beings =
>= the sun...what's / are there atheists?         + dread the due changes   =
>= done is done..." \  -variation on St. Anselm's + ahead..."               =
>=  -Ride: "Today"  /   Ontological Proof         +  -Red House Painters

Hello all..

On a party everybody sits in groups and communicates about shared topics..
Some about music, some about the questions of life, some about how to do
the dishes or about cars, well, you get the point. But when they are in the
same room, they all listen to the same music, and that can create an
enviroment in wich topics are being discussed that can only be done there.
But, like I said, On a party you sit in groups. On internet you are forced
to listen to each other...

I rather like the existence of such a discussion without giving it a
quality rating, since sharing thoughts has never been proven useless. But
it has been proven that people -in general- discriminate thoughts that *
can be harmfull or * make one realize that one doesn't knows it all. You
would go crazy anyway. But when a bunch of people try -carefully- to
explore a field or a topic, you can get smarter of it. In general. And if
you understand it already, then it cannot harm you or irritate you, you
will live -unnoticed- in peace with it. So please, don't tell people to
stop thinking or communicating for no other reason then your own dislike,
like you were the endproduct of evolution. Mmm.. Sounds rather nasty. Well,
If somebody can say it better, stand up.

Thank you.

Nick.

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:17:36 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations


On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David Heath wrote:

> Micah Newman writes:
>
> >        ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
> >determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
> >of the universe--which we know is of finite age--not that it matters,
> >since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
> >outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.
> >
>
> Well, since this is being discussed here, am I correct in assuming these
> are the lyrics to some new Air Miami track?
>

No, silly: they're the hitherto undiscovered translations of the lyrics
to the first few Cocteau Twins albums....

--Jeff

Jeffrey Norman                              "Whales are mammals just like you
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee       Please don't melt them down for glue"
Dept. of English & Comp. Lit.


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:37:06 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations (strictly nominal 4ad content)


On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Micah Newman wrote:

>
> Yes, and I am quickly tiring of it too. Let us all stick to the music
> from now on. This is all pointless. No one is going to convince anyone of
> anything, and further argument is pointless.

In other words, "Don't think, just buy"--as an old Tuxedomoon song runs,
a band whose bass player Peter Principle worked with Minimal Compact,
who've worked with John Fryer, who's worked with the Cocteau Twins. (So
there.)

Why, every time I've gotten into discussion w/a religious person about
the grounds of their beliefs, have they eventually resorted to this
"pointless" "no one will change their mind" position?

While I'm at it, the reason, I suspect, many of us bothered to respond to
this thread, from an anti-religious viewpoint, is because organized
religion has been quite arguably the single most negative force in world
history, and continues vying for that role today. So, while it's your
choice to believe what you wish, the moment you start impressing those
beliefs upon others, you need to take responsibility for the consequences
of those beliefs, which include the history of similar beliefs and
organizations which propound them.

I, at least, don't think this is a pointless discussion: any discussion
which causes us to examine the grounds of our beliefs ("us" too) is
useful. The mind can be likened to a muscle; it'll atrophy if left unused.

--Jeff

Jeffrey Norman                              "Whales are mammals just like you
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee       Please don't melt them down for glue"
Dept. of English & Comp. Lit.

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 22:16:07 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations (still no 4ad content)


I was planning on taking this discussion to private e-mail, but just as I
had that thought, today's mail revealed several other interested parties.
So the rest of you, hit that "d" key!

On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Micah Newman wrote (in response to my earlier,
garbled post):

> > that, overall, i tmight not happen. (And it did; we're here--so it seems
> > simultaneously very likely and extrmely unlikely, for different reasons)
>
>         Circular, circular, circular to the last! "Well it MUST have
> happened, because, *hyuk* -- here we are!" I'm not saying Anselm's
> "Proof" isn't circular in its own way, but you fail miserably in
> providing a rational alternative.
>

I agree that my phrasing and thought are difficult to follow there. What I
originally wrote was: "Granted that life of such complexity is
unlikely--but that doesn't mean that, overall, it might not happen. (And
it did; we're here--so it seems simultaneously very likely and extrmely
unlikely, for different reasons)" What I meant is:

a) such complex life *would* seem unlikely in the absence of its actual
existence;
b) it *does* actually exist; i.e., here we are, which--
c) seems very likely, in the sense that we are *conscious* that we are
here, and--
d) very unlikely, apparently, in retrospect (this essentially restates
"a" above.

An event that it unlikely to occur in any given circumstance becomes more
likely to occur with repetition of those circumstances. The
"circumstances" here are simply: the universe as it was before we were
here. My point is, the vastness of time & space serves to multiply those
odds--if not to 1:1, certainly higher than they'd seem.

>
>         ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
> determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
> of the universe--which we know is of finite age--not that it matters,
> since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
> outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.
>

So "God" becomes your name for this unlikelihood, whereas scientists
might christen it "The Big Bang," etc. Defining "God" in such an abstract
way stretches the meaning so far we might as well call it "love,"
"spirit," "the strong electromagnetic force," or "The Force."

The argument for God started within a specifically *Christian* framework.
*That* god is defined not only by creation, but by a whole series of
other attributes, which (among other things) are supposed to order our
behavior, compel our worship, etc. etc.

Granting for the moment taht "God" created the universe--does that compel
us in any way to acknowledge that force? (Remember, all I'm granting is
that "God is a retired engineer": God set things up, and that's it) I
don't see why.

You need to go a lot further than mathematical odds to explain why God
ought to be regarded as a personal god, why God compels worship &
obedience, etc. etc. etc.: all the paraphernalia of organized religion.

Otherwise, all we're acknowledging in naming "God" as creator is that we
don't understand where the universe came from. No one claims to
understand that (except, of course, by designating everything "before"
the moment of creation as "God"; nomenclature escape hatch.) (The last
phrase sounds curiously like the title of a Fall song....)

--Jeff

Jeffrey Norman                            "I suspect that the first dictator
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee      of this country will be called Coach"
Dept. of English & Comp. Lit.

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:07:12 -0400
From: wendy lyon (wlyon@DELPHI.UMD.EDU)
Subject: Re: refutations


On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David Heath wrote:
> > Micah Newman writes:
> >
> > >        ...etc, etc. But look- calculations have actually been done to
> > >determine this, and the amount of order still way exceeds the maximum age
> > >of the universe--which we know is of finite age--not that it matters,
> > >since infinite time only creates infinite chaos, unless Something Else
> > >outside nature sets it all up in almost the same state we see it in now.
> > >
> > Well, since this is being discussed here, am I correct in assuming these
> > are the lyrics to some new Air Miami track?
> >
> No, silly: they're the hitherto undiscovered translations of the lyrics
> to the first few Cocteau Twins albums....

No, I think they're the instructions for how to unsubscribe to
this list...
-----
wendy

"There's a very fine line between being artistic and being a dickhead"
                                                         --Peter Hook


erikas@evo.org, last updated by Eyesore Automation on 9-22-1995