4ad-l Mail for 09-16-1995

Mail in Archive

Subject: Re: Volume www site
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:21:16 -0500
From: "Michael R. M. Cheselka" (mikec@FAUSTEX.COM)
Subject: Lush Questions
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:11:24 -0700
From: "Scott, Mari & Brian" (sten@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: song id por favor plus other shit
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 00:24:42 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4ad release UK schedule
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:14:01 -0700
From: Candice A Mack (mackc@WATNXT07.UCR.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:46:53 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: Lush Q's (+ Annie Williams)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 02:08:25 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: song id por favor plus other shit
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:32:26 -0400
From: "...Luminatus..." (drex@DORSAI.DORSAI.ORG)
Subject: Re: Volume www site
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:16:42 -0700
From: David Stack (dstack@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:09:50 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Minneapolis, Lisa Gerrard
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:24:39 -0700
From: Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Volume www site
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:20:50 -0700
From: Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: 4AD-L Digest - 14 Sep 1995 to 15 Sep 1995
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:33:11 -0700
From: jiji johnson (jiji@SPEED.NET)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:13:18 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: FS - latest ida 7"...
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 12:34:13 -0700
From: "jOHN and a li'l ESP noisecricket" (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:41:14 -0600
From: anricat (mazonas@UCSUB.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:36:38 -0600
From: anricat (mazonas@UCSUB.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:35:08 -0400
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Long Fin Kellie, typos (was Re: Cocteau remixes by Seefeel)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:12:31 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:00:34 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:36:25 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:40:49 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: alt.barney.die.die.die (off-topic)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:46:53 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Get Me Off This List!
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:10:22 -0700
From: Greg Cook (gacook@JUNCTION.NET)
Subject: aUTECHRE.aMBER
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 20:53:13 -0400
From: bruce levenstein (bruceL@INTERRAMP.COM)
Subject: cz's sat night rant (was Get Me Off This List!)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:12:28 -0400
From: ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: aUTECHRE.aMBER
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:48:36 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: cz's sat night rant (was Get Me Off This List!)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:54:18 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: don't read (was Re: cz's sat night rant)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 22:31:27 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Porcupine Tree: The Sky Moves Sideways
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:38:15 CST
From: eric (eewittme@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:21:16 -0500
From: "Michael R. M. Cheselka" (mikec@FAUSTEX.COM)
Subject: Re: Volume www site


Speaking of Volume, does anyone know where I can find Volume 2 and 3?
Need 'em to complete up to 10.
Thanks!

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:11:24 -0700
From: "Scott, Mari & Brian" (sten@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Lush Questions


I saw  at Cdeurope something called "Lush Lush Lush" and was wondering
if anybody knew what this was. I also ordered "Kalidescopic (SI)
Harmonies" is this a good boot, or should I cancel my order?

                                Brian


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 00:24:42 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: song id por favor plus other shit


Okay, remember three months ago I asked you about a song I heard on the
radio and you all either ignored me or made fun of me? :) Well I heard it
again and this time made a note of chords and lyrics. Strumming in the
style of Get the Message, the chords descending. All are the most basic
inversions. Remember, this is kind of AORy so don't get mad at me or think
I'm saying it was the *perfect* song or anything; I just likee it. :)

D maj           did-i tell you you're won.der.fu.l
                 D  F# E    F#  E     F#   G   G F# .....

F# min          i miss you ..... yeah i do ........
               F# F#   E         F#  F# E-F#

C maj           did-i tell you that i was wro.ng ......
                D   F# E    F#  E   F# G  F-F# F

E min           i was wro.ng ...........
                D D   F   E

At this point and in the same place at the end of the second line you
have, high up on the guitar:

D
G . G . F#   (spatial relationships not necessarily denoting octaves)
    E   D

Sorry but I don't know how else to do this. :) Oh yeah, those last two
notes fall on the first beat of the odd numbered lines.

Thank you. :) Okay, as promised: other shit. As you probably expected and
as I knew would eventually happen, I bought the Sponge album on the
strength of Molly and I think it is a big piece of shit! I also saw
Desperado and it is AWESOME. That movie is funny as hell, man, and I
don't mean that in an arrogant camp sense. The move is seriously
brillianbt comedy and should have been promoted as such. It's as funny
and intense as Pulp Fiction or True Lies.

What else...I have decided I don't much like Steve Hillage or any of his
scum friends, I failed a quiz today, I still listen to Modula Green at
least three times a day and think it is the best ambient since Lifeforms
so dammit buy it before all the Fax nerds start listening to me. You have
been warned. Thank you and goodnight. :)

e


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:14:01 -0700
From: Candice A Mack (mackc@WATNXT07.UCR.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4ad release UK schedule


this is more specifically directed to josh@asu.edu, re: new lush...  what
were the lyrics to the song?  metropolis, a local radio show here in LA is
playing a new song by lush called "ladykiller."  it's rather
"split"-esque, imho.  it's currently only available as a promo.

--candice

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:46:53 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, anricat wrote:

> Excuse me Mr. Einexile?  What exactly is your point?

Honestly, did I not state my point *very* clearly?

> I hate reading long posts....

It was 17 lines.

> I usually don't waste my time and I don't think I have even
> posted on this list before...I just lurk.  But why are you being so
> insulting?

Bahahahaha...this is a vintage 4ad-l lurker anti-einexile rant if I ever
read one. Accuse me of wasting time and space while you are doing the
very same thing, then post two copies of your message to the list and in
each of them quote my entire post. Note that, as I did previously, I am
attacking the *content* of the message. A reader cannot be insulted by
such an attack; it is impossible, unless his stake in his argument is
entirely emotional in nature. You are substituting the word "insulting"
for the word "humiliating". Please leave it to Mr. Fischer to decide
whether or not he has been humiliated. I think an intentional (and
uninspired) reference to someone's chosen callsign is more in the realm
of insulting than was anything in my message to Michael.

> It seems to me that the majority of the people on this list
> thinks the Cocteau Twins list or newsgroup is pointless because all that
> is worth discussing about the band is posted here.

Here you seem to deliberately misrepresent my position. What a surprise.
Such courage! And then there's the old state-your-position-then-declare-
the-discussion-unwarranted trick. What say you to Cocteau Twins fans who
don't know about 4AD?

> If you want to start
> this alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins (my damn hands got tired just typing the
> newgroup!!) then just shut up and do it.

I think the one thing Michael and myself *do* agree on is that this is
not the proper way to go about things. I believe in the current system
used at alt.control, I may or may not post a formal proposal to
alt.config, and if the response is not positive I will not post a
newgroup message to the control group. Do you know anything about Usenet
at all?

> Don't sit there and insult
> people who think it is a crummy idea.

I didn't insult anyone who thought it was a crummy idea. I tore up an
argument that we should stop discussing it entirely and exposed that
argument for the arrogance it exhibited in assuming that we all agree on
a point on which we do *not* all agree. (You have done something similar
in this post and I have responded in the same way.) Also, for Michael's
declare the entire discussion null and void only a week ago?" (Your own
tone is far worse--at least I can suspect Michael of making an honest
mistake.)

> Enough about this topic...I am
> sick of hitting the delete key!

Now see? I could insult you here in many different ways, but I am
restraining myself and doing it only once. I am not that bad a guy after
all, am I?

That the creation or non-creation of alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins ought to
be discussed on this list is so devastatingly obvious I don't know how
one might respond to an honest and straightforward statement that it
should not be, so it may actually be better for the dialogue that the two
of you have evaded the point entirely. However, straw man arguments are
NOT ALLOWED on this mailing list, and if you try it again I *will*
respond by simply hurling insults your way...so out of concern for the
bandwidth shortage, please refrain from stating your position except when
you really do have a position. Thanks ever so much.


 einexile, king of foul


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 02:08:25 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Lush Q's (+ Annie Williams)


On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Scott, Mari & Brian wrote:

> I saw  at Cdeurope something called "Lush Lush Lush" and was wondering
> if anybody knew what this was. I also ordered "Kalidescopic (SI)
> Harmonies" is this a good boot, or should I cancel my order?
>
>                                 Brian

I cannot be certain so take this with some salt, but I *think* I heard it
and I *think* that I thought it was awful at the time. Can't remember why
exactly. Lush Lush Lush is most likely: 1) a Japanese bootleg, or: 2) a
mistake on CDE's part. If you ask the people at the store there is a good
chance they will know what it is; one of the good things about that
place is that they seem to make a point of looking at the CDs they sell
and remembering what is on them. Not always, but sometimes.

While I am at it, does anyone have Annie Williams' _Ruby_ ep (on Apollo)
on a CD? I can't find it and would really like to have it. (I do have the
vinyl, which is good because the cover--Designers Republic, no less--is
nice and pornographic.)

(I am reminded of this because I have had the disc on order from CDE for
some time now.)

Thanks,


 einexile, advocate of album covers as high art ;)


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:32:26 -0400
From: "...Luminatus..." (drex@DORSAI.DORSAI.ORG)
Subject: Re: song id por favor plus other shit


eh, this song is "wonderful" by adam ant.  :)  cool AORer song, but if u
        hear it nth time it can become boring (what happens to most aorer
        songs).

back to lurking;

JHR

On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, einexile the meek wrote:

>
> D maj           did-i tell you you're won.der.fu.l
>                  D  F# E    F#  E     F#   G   G F# .....
>
> F# min          i miss you ..... yeah i do ........
>                F# F#   E         F#  F# E-F#
>
> C maj           did-i tell you that i was wro.ng ......
>                 D   F# E    F#  E   F# G  F-F# F
>
> E min           i was wro.ng ...........
>                 D D   F   E
>
> At this point and in the same place at the end of the second line you
> have, high up on the guitar:
>
> D
> G . G . F#   (spatial relationships not necessarily denoting octaves)
>     E   D
>
> e
>


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:16:42 -0700
From: David Stack (dstack@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Volume www site

              Sep 15, 95 12:21:16 pm

>
> Speaking of Volume, does anyone know where I can find Volume 2 and 3?
> Need 'em to complete up to 10.
> Thanks!
>
Not sure where you can get volume 2 or 3, but I have volume 1 for sale.

$10 + shipping.

Dave


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:09:50 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


        einexile responded to anricat who wrote:
>
>> Excuse me Mr. Einexile?  What exactly is your point?...
>> Enough about this topic...I am
>> sick of hitting the delete key!
>
        In this case, i'm 100% on e's side.  He did a fine job of replying
to this post.  Why are you trying to stop *discussion* about whether a
Cocteau Twins newsgroup/mailing list ought to be started?  If you're sick
of hitting the delete key then just think about how sick serious Cocteau
fans without interest in other 'thislisty' bands must be.  I don't care too
much whether "alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins" gets created but that doesn't
mean i want the discussion to stop since it certainly would affect the
list.

-cz

___<<<<<<<<<*********ckemnitz@students.wisc.edu********>>>>>>>>>___

"I pass death with the dying, and birth with the new-washed babe. . . . and
am not contained between my hat and boots..."     -Walt Whitman


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:24:39 -0700
From: Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Minneapolis, Lisa Gerrard


i am going to see Lisa Gerrard on Monday, October 16th in Minneapolis,
she is playing at the Guthrie Theatre-Walker Arts Center.  if anyone is
headed out for the show, please contact me.  I'd like to met other
listies.

cheers, euthelene

work backwards from reality

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:20:50 -0700
From: Kayleigh (uthelene@IX.NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Volume www site


You wrote:
>
>Speaking of Volume, does anyone know where I can find Volume 2 and 3?
>Need 'em to complete up to 10.
>Thanks!
>
stright from the gal who does the subscription work, they are out,
goneski, the only way you'll get them is if you break into someone's
abode who has them and rip them off.  someone just did this to me,
actually they took more than the volumes, but that is besides the
point.  someone in Minneapolis is now enjoying the bounty of my hard
fought fight to complete sharky.  actually come to think of it, they
probablly don't even appreciate it, they just stole to steal.

euthelene, sharkless girl


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:33:11 -0700
From: jiji johnson (jiji@SPEED.NET)
Subject: Re: 4AD-L Digest - 14 Sep 1995 to 15 Sep 1995


Hello, all:
I know I may be a dork for asking and am intimidated by the overwhelming
know-how of 4AD and  thislisty kids, but um...can someone tell me AIR
MIAMI's trip?  No pun intended.  I dig their latest and know little to
nothing about them...also their artwork and pop electronics threw me for a
loop at first....first song out I checked and recheked their label listing.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the stuff either way, it's just hardly
Tarnation or Mojave(3??)--at first.

aglow/awash

jiji johnson

==============
jiji@speed.net
==============
come scope the Scope

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:13:18 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, einexile the meek wrote:

> Uh, hello? It's called the alt hierarchy. the SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR looks
> at the control message or the arguments for and against or the source of
> the messages involved, and if by his standards the newsgroup is a waste
> of bandwidth, HE DOESN'T ADD IT. And he will not worry about everyone
> else's bandwidth because the new group isn't likely to generate any new
> traffic.

First of all, the alt.hierarchy administration isn't exactly known for their
wise choices in there matters.  There are *two* alt.90210 newsgroups,
last I looked, there are completely useless newsgroups like alt.1d, etc.

Second, what's the point of starting a newsgroup if, as you claim, it "isn't
likely to generate new traffic" in the first place?  Is it simply to satisfy
your ego so that you may claim, "I started a CT newsgroup, nyah nyah!"?

> Who has not been reading the mail? It has not been established that the
> list aint broke. Some people think it is. I am not one of them, but I do
> think there are a lot of Cocteau Twins fans out there who don't know
> about 4AD as a label and would benefit from that knowledge. The proposed

Fine then.  They can go to Yahoo like everyone else, visit Jack Huynh's Web
page and learn that.

> newsgroup isn't just 4ad-l letting off some steam but a means of
> incorporating something that is splitting off from there. The newsgroup
> is going to be added sooner or later and I personally dislike the idea of
> someone adding alt.fan.cocteautwins, alt.music.ambient.cocteau-twins,
> etc. If you don't want the group formed, argue against the proposal when
> it is made; don't whine that people are thinking of proposing it in the
> first place.

No, I'd *much* rather whine about it before the proposal is sent so that
the matter can be closed quickly, and before it gets out of hand.

The point I'm trying to make is that the issue is too narrow to start a
newsgroup.  As in Projekt's case, there simply isn't enough demand to
create one, so a mailing list (which I'm almost ready to announce) would
be more appropriate.  Starting Usenet newsgroups is a serious thing--a
*lot* of traffic is generated by news feeds, and there's no sense in
spreading messages to sites where the users won't read them in the first
place.

If you're concerned about publicity, just ask Jack to put a pointer to the
list server on his Web site (and ask Yahoo to do it in their artist index
as well).

-------
 |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_
 |   Internet: mfischer@nsi.edu            The Neurosciences Institute   |
()   Phone: 619.626.2000  Pager: 619.645.5693            San Diego, CA   |

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 12:34:13 -0700
From: "jOHN and a li'l ESP noisecricket" (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: FS - latest ida 7"...


  good ol' simple machines. due to an ongoing shortage of everything
  i try to order from them, i have wound up with an extra ida 7" for
  "it's not alright". SM saw fit to send me it after running out of
  yet another item i wanted, and i already have this 7". it's a
  GREAT single...truly, it is...and i highly recommend ida to anyone
  and everyone. i'd like to sell this for $5 ppd. if you're interested,
  please reply via e-mail.


  k


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:41:14 -0600
From: anricat (mazonas@UCSUB.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


I think you are misunderstanding me....I only listen to about 3 or 4 4ad
bands, all of whom are not even on the lable any more!  Cocteau twins
being one of those bands....I am just sick of you all whining about this
usenet thing. All I said, basically was that I was unhappy that e (or
whatever he calls himself) insulted my fiance and then insulted me and if
he really wants this newsgroup then he should quit whining and just go
and do it!  Jezz....you people are so touchy...
Anri


On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, cz wrote:

>         In this case, i'm 100% on e's side.  He did a fine job of replying
> to this post.  Why are you trying to stop *discussion* about whether a
> Cocteau Twins newsgroup/mailing list ought to be started?  If you're sick
> of hitting the delete key then just think about how sick serious Cocteau
> fans without interest in other 'thislisty' bands must be.  I don't care too
> much whether "alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins" gets created but that doesn't
> mean i want the discussion to stop since it certainly would affect the
> list.
>
> -cz

       | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ------- Anri                                        net.goth
     \ | /  "Hands up! Who wants to die?"
      \|/   mreeeeeeow....           mazonas@ucsub.colorado.edu
      /|\   go ahead, lick my boots.
     / | \  "when you grovel at my feet, keep it short and sweet"
         ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:36:38 -0600
From: anricat (mazonas@UCSUB.COLORADO.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


thank you for telling me how Michael feels...or should feel?  But, I
think that I know him a bit better than you....he is my fiance.....
thank you for the lovely flame Mr. Einexile....and so what if I lurk?  Is
that a problem?
Anri


> for the word "humiliating". Please leave it to Mr. Fischer to decide
> whether or not he has been humiliated. I think an intentional (and
> uninspired) reference to someone's chosen callsign is more in the realm
> of insulting than was anything in my message to Michael.

[cut]
> I think the one thing Michael and myself *do* agree on is that this is
> not the proper way to go about things. I believe in the current system
> used at alt.control, I may or may not post a formal proposal to
> alt.config, and if the response is not positive I will not post a
> newgroup message to the control group. Do you know anything about Usenet
> at all?




       | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ------- Anri                                        net.goth
     \ | /  "Hands up! Who wants to die?"
      \|/   mreeeeeeow....           mazonas@ucsub.colorado.edu
      /|\   go ahead, lick my boots.
     / | \  "when you grovel at my feet, keep it short and sweet"
         ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:35:08 -0400
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


Here's my 2 cents on this subject:

1. There's no justifiable reason that I've seen for not creating the group
   in the context of Internet norms (if there be such a thing anymore),
   since, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of alt.JUNK groups
   out there that serve little real purpose. alt.barney.die.die.die does
   not strike me as being a very purposeful group, but that's just me.

2. I agree that many Cocteau Twins discussions could be handled easily
   within the framework of 4AD-L, but has anyone considered the fact
   that not everyone on the Internet is necessarily interested in
   subscribing to a mailing list? Maybe they're already subscribed to
   a few and don't WANT anymore mail, or don't know HOW to subscribe
   to a mailing list, or simply don't want to subscribe at all. And
   maybe they don't CARE about 4AD and its other offerings past and
   present and only want to know about Cocteau Twins stuff.

3. The band themselves have recently become increasingly involved with
   the Internet, most significantly with their Web site. Since there
   isn't a way to maintain a newsgroup as an integral part of a Web
   site (none of which I'm aware, but I'm no genius), and since the
   Cocteau Twins don't exactly care to be associated with 4AD anymore
   than is necessary, I can imagine them supporting the idea of a
   Newsgroup which exists for the purpose of exchanging information
   which pertains to THEM specifically.  This way, anyone interested
   in the latest news (who may not have WWW access) can get it, and
   any sorts of rumors or whatever can be posted to the group and
   one of the band members can address it directly if they choose to.
   Jack could easily create a link to the Newsgroup from the WWW page,
   as he already has for both the alt.music.4AD group as well as this
   list itself.  (There is currently a GUESTBOOK feature at the
   Cocteau WWW page, but it doesn't facilitate discussion/debate like
   a Newsgroup does).


Personally, I don't care one way or the other whether alt.music.cocteautwins
or whatever it's to be called is ever established. _I_ get the information
I need easily enough, but I'm speaking on behalf of the hundreds of indi-
viduals on the Internet (and soon to be on the Internet) who may not have
the same resources and who therefore may find such a Newsgroup useful.

Sorry for the length of this post.

Mike
iceblink@delphi.com

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:12:31 -0500
From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" (jenor@CSD.UWM.EDU)
Subject: Long Fin Kellie, typos (was Re: Cocteau remixes by Seefeel)


On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, stirring up world-wide havoc, Larry Koch wrote:

>
> BTW thanks to whoever it was (no longer have the message) who posted the
> review of the Pram/Long Fin Killie/Jessamine/Laika show in NYC - I really
> appreciate it.
>

Agreed--although it was too bad that person missed LFK. I have the Too
Pure/Ame4ican _Houdini_ CD--anybody know anything more about that band?
Other releases, personnel, who does what, what they might've done
previously, etc.?

> File under "clueless": in the fine tradition of the Medicine review that
> identified the singer as Liz Fraser, today's _Toronto Star_ features an
> interview with Laika in which the writer constantly refers to Margaret
> Fiedler as Margaret *Aedler*. Doh!
>

That looks to me like a typesetting problem--write a capital F and a
lowercase i *very* close to one another, you'll see something rather like
a capital A. A crappy fax could accopmlish the same effect.

--Jeff
                                                                "money spines
Jeffrey Norman                                                    paper lungs
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee                               kidney bingos
Dept. of English & Comp. Lit.                                      organ fun"

In my CD changer: Brian Eno _The Shutov Assembly_
                  Main _Firmament II_
                  Aphex Twin _Selected Ambient Works Volume 2 (disc 2)
                  Autechre _Incunabula_
                  Bruce Gilbert _This Way to the Shivering Man_


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:00:34 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Michael S. Fischer wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, einexile the meek wrote:
>
> > Uh, hello? It's called the alt hierarchy. the SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR looks
> > at the control message or the arguments for and against or the source of
> > the messages involved, and if by his standards the newsgroup is a waste
> > of bandwidth, HE DOESN'T ADD IT. And he will not worry about everyone
> > else's bandwidth because the new group isn't likely to generate any new
> > traffic.
>
> First of all, the alt.hierarchy administration isn't exactly known for their
> wise choices in there matters.  There are *two* alt.90210 newsgroups,
> last I looked, there are completely useless newsgroups like alt.1d, etc.

There is no alt.hierarchy administration. Delete the groups from your
file if you don't want them. Every day I read news and start with "delete
bogus group blah.blah.blah.blah? (y/n)". Run your system how you like;
don't carry alt.* at all, or advocate its complete destruction if you
wish. Send out rmgroup messages in your spare time.

> Second, what's the point of starting a newsgroup if, as you claim, it "isn't
> likely to generate new traffic" in the first place?  Is it simply to satisfy
> your ego so that you may claim, "I started a CT newsgroup, nyah nyah!"?

You are talking about "newgroup it and they will come". It is generally
frowned upon to newgroup with the reason you seem to require of me. The
purpose of the new group is to create a rational split in existing
traffic, not to get people to start posting more news. This won't happen.
All of the new traffic either will be from Cocteaus fans happy to have
discovered the group, or will be on the Newsgroups: line.

> > Who has not been reading the mail? It has not been established that the
> > list aint broke. Some people think it is. I am not one of them, but I do
> > think there are a lot of Cocteau Twins fans out there who don't know
> > about 4AD as a label and would benefit from that knowledge. The proposed
>
> Fine then.  They can go to Yahoo like everyone else, visit Jack Huynh's Web
> page and learn that.

Well then we don't need Usenet at all, do we? We can all just hang out on
IRC all day! As it turns out, some of us *do* avoid the web as we suffer
from poor browsers, low transfer speeds, or just a general dislike of
graphical interfaces or hypertext (in my case all four). Perhaps you
might think this is unreasonable but either there are a lot of these
people of your nightmare new traffic scenario is a fantasy.

> > newsgroup isn't just 4ad-l letting off some steam but a means of
> > incorporating something that is splitting off from there. The newsgroup
> > is going to be added sooner or later and I personally dislike the idea of
> > someone adding alt.fan.cocteautwins, alt.music.ambient.cocteau-twins,
> > etc. If you don't want the group formed, argue against the proposal when
> > it is made; don't whine that people are thinking of proposing it in the
> > first place.
>
> No, I'd *much* rather whine about it before the proposal is sent so that
> the matter can be closed quickly, and before it gets out of hand.

In other words before people can advocate the group on alt.config? I
don't see your point. I did say in my original post that IF everyone
seems to want the group I would post a proposal. Have I done so? I am no
mad newgrouper and I am all for talking about it here before bringing the
subject up on alt.config, but you seem anxious even to put THIS
discussion to a quick silence.

> The point I'm trying to make is that the issue is too narrow to start a
> newsgroup.  As in Projekt's case, there simply isn't enough demand to
> create one, so a mailing list (which I'm almost ready to announce) would
> be more appropriate.
>
> Starting Usenet newsgroups is a serious thing--a
> *lot* of traffic is generated by news feeds, and there's no sense in
> spreading messages to sites where the users won't read them in the first
> place.
>
> If you're concerned about publicity, just ask Jack to put a pointer to the
> list server on his Web site (and ask Yahoo to do it in their artist index
> as well).

These are all valid points and worthy of consideration, but if there is
enough interest AND a lot of people hold a different opinion of your
premises and their application to alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins, the group
should be newgrouped. I honestly don't really care about the group itself
and will probably not read it or even subscribe to it; I simply offered
to do the work should the consensus be that the group ought to be added,
and I don't see why you assume I would arbitrarily add an unwarranted
newsgroup--nor why you saw fit to inflict upon me your indignant
incredulity, for my crime of not being interested in either side of an
argument in which you were involved a week ago.


 einexile the mad pre-proposal discussion accomplice


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:36:25 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, anricat wrote:

> thank you for telling me how Michael feels...or should feel?

Is this what I am doing below?

I wrote:

> > Please leave it to Mr. Fischer to decide
> > whether or not he has been humiliated.

You said that I had insulted him. I had not insulted him; you implicitly
declared that humiliation was his inevitable reaction to my pointed and
respectful disagreement with his position.

> But, I
> think that I know him a bit better than you....

So you know in fact that he was humiliated? Either you don't know him as
well as you think you do, or he has failed to take issue with something I
have said that he thought was improper. If I have honestly insulted him I
should hope the first thing you would do would be to inform me of what
exactly I said that qualifies as an insult. But it is obvious that you
have no idea what qualifies as an insult; you are talking about my
contemptuous tone which was directed at the arrogance of his statements
and absurdity of his position. It was not a personal attack except to the
extent that he may or may not take a personal stake in his positions.

> he is my fiance.....

You must be very beautiful indeed!

> and so what if I lurk?  Is that a problem?

No; I simply said that the hypocrisy in and around your response (which
you do not deny in this new response) was typical of lurkers who get all
red in the face because of something I say and come out swinging.

I have nothing further to say about this mindless branch of the debate.
I suggest you take it to someone else's personal mailbox.


 e

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:40:49 -0700
From: "Michael S. Fischer" (msf@NSI.EDU)
Subject: Re: alt.music.4ad.cocteau-twins


After reading at some length the debate surrounding this argument, I
would like to finish with one last point:

One of the things I'm trying to help establish on the Internet is some
kind of "legitimacy" to the information that is being spread; in other
words, a *definitive* source for certain types of information.  While we
certainly cannot limit what and where information is broadcasted about a
particular subject (in this case the Cocteau Twins), I can certainly try
to persuade others towards that end.

In short: WHY should I have to scan two newsgroups (three, if you count
alt.gothic, and I'm sure there are many others that discuss them) and two
mailing lists to find out about one band?  It seems silly to me.  I say,
pick one arena for live (sort of) discussion (my choice being a mailing
list rather than a newsgroup), and one for archives (the WWW site).  I
don't want to waste my time finding information, and it's a waste of
bandwidth and disk space to have it repeated in multiple forums.

Finally, to those who like the idea of starting up yet another source of
information "cos of the newbies," to me that is a silly argument.
Everyone was a newbie once; newbies eventually learn to find things.
Don't insult their intelligence.

-------
 |\  Michael S. Fischer                           System Administrator  _O_
 |   Internet: mfischer@nsi.edu            The Neurosciences Institute   |
()   Phone: 619.626.2000  Pager: 619.645.5693            San Diego, CA   |

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:46:53 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: alt.barney.die.die.die (off-topic)


On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear wrote:

>    as others have pointed out, there are plenty of alt.JUNK groups
>    out there that serve little real purpose. alt.barney.die.die.die does
>    not strike me as being a very purposeful group, but that's just me.

Have you actually read that group? It is surprisingly intelligent! Or at
least last time I looked through there. As someone who despises Barney
not for his looks but for his *mind* ;) I do have serious objections to
the content of his show and found the group to be refreshingly
intellectual by comparison with the rest of Usenet as well as full of
very witty people. I recommend it to anyone who honestly objects to
Barney and what he stands for--of for that matter what a *lot* of people
stand for these days--as well as for generally good humorous reading (for
those days when 4ad-l just won't do it for you.)

Your post was not too long and was full of what this discussion should be
full of. I want to add that while I don't know how a newsgroup can be
integrated into a web page, I do have friends who run message bases on
their home pages and this might be considered as an option.


 e


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:10:22 -0700
From: Greg Cook (gacook@JUNCTION.NET)
Subject: Get Me Off This List!


Someone please help me , I need to get off of this list, but I don't know how!

Please send me an answer through this mail list or by my own e-mail at:

gacook@junction.net

Thank you very very much!!!
Greg!


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 20:53:13 -0400
From: bruce levenstein (bruceL@INTERRAMP.COM)
Subject: aUTECHRE.aMBER


ok, i finally broke down and decided to see what all the fuss was with
autechre so i bought amber becasue it has a cool cover.
i think it's pretty damn cool.
could someone compare/contrast it with their other stuff/ep's/compilation
tracks?
thanks...

-bruce

 ---------------------------------------------
 |   A is for AMY who fell down the stairs.  |
 ---------------------------------------------
 | bruce levenstein     brucel@interramp.com |
 ---------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:12:28 -0400
From: ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU
Subject: cz's sat night rant (was Get Me Off This List!)


        name withheld to protect the guilty:
>Someone please help me , I need to get off of this list, but I don't know how!
>
>Please send me an answer through this mail list or by my own e-mail at:

No!  Please don't send us ALL this information since *we* have kept our
FAQ's and all know how we are supposed to unsubscribe from the list.  Yes,
sometimes things are weird unsubbing (or so i've heard) and in those cases a
plea to the list is understandable but for heaven's sake do a little of your
own homework:  Read the FAQ, if you've lost your FAQ do a websearch for
"4ad-l faq" and you'll probably get pointed to one, if you don't have web
access try sending a help message to the listserv address
(listserv@american.edu).

Sheeesh, too much alt.blah.blah.blah talk, too much work on a saturday, and
too little human interaction make cz a grumpy boy.  I'd better drink my mt.
dew (the elixir of life), go home, listen to Stina, then go dancing.  Yeah,
that will clear my system.

Is anyone still reading this?  ...     no?  Good.

-cz


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:48:36 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: aUTECHRE.aMBER


On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, bruce levenstein wrote:

> ok, i finally broke down and decided to see what all the fuss was with
> autechre so i bought amber becasue it has a cool cover.
> i think it's pretty damn cool.

I told you so. :)

> could someone compare/contrast it with their other stuff/ep's/compilation
> tracks?

Incunabula is their other full length album and has a darker, more
futuristic feel to it, not as atmospheric or as icy as Amber. It also
isn't so well integrated into a whole though it still works. The beats
are a little harsher on Incunabula but the actual sounds aren't as hars
as on Amber.

Then you have three singles: Basscad,ep which is five remixes of a track
off Incunabula, one of which is by Seefeel. Good stuff, but it's really
just a single. Anti EP is three new tracks, all pretty off and my least
favorite Autechre material because it is kind of obnoxious and seems to
lack direction. It is also very experimental though so I admire it.
Garbage is a long, superb ep which is a good companion to Amber. All new
material, but probably taken from the Amber sessions somehow. Real good,
fun beats on this one and a killer atmosphere to it. The new single,
Anvil Vapre, I have not heard yet but it sounds yummy as hell, fast and
hard. The new album, Tri Repetae, is due November 6.

Personally I would say go with Garbage or Incunabula, depending on if you
want something similar to Amber or prefer to explore another side to
them. Autechre are becoming the Slowdive of ambient--always experimenting
and innovative, and more and more they have that kind of almost universal
respect. They are really quite amazing and even the Anti Ep is a sure
bet, really.


 Aeinexile

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:54:18 -0700
From: einexile the meek (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: cz's sat night rant (was Get Me Off This List!)


> Is anyone still reading this?  ...     no?  Good.

Oh but you *know* I am!

> >Please send me an answer through this mail list or by my own e-mail at:

> plea to the list is understandable but for heaven's sake do a little of your
> own homework:  Read the FAQ, if you've lost your FAQ do a websearch for

He might have bothered at least sending the help message. :( I hate it
when you can tell someone made no effort at all.

>  mt. dew (the elixir of life)

Pepsi all the way, man!

> listen to Stina

Anything new I should know about?

She has a second and third single off And She Closed Her Eyes listed at
CDE, but of course they can't actually *get* them...

e


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 22:31:27 +0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: don't read (was Re: cz's sat night rant)


        e's reply to my question:
>> Is anyone still reading this?  ...     no?  Good.
>
>Oh but you *know* I am!

I guess, if i wanted everyone to read it i should have put "test (don't
read)" in the subject line.  The next best thing is to complain about
something.  No one reads the happy posts.  :)

>>  mt. dew (the elixir of life)
>
>Pepsi all the way, man!

        Well you need your USRDA (US recommended daily allowance, for you
for'ners)
of brominated vegetable oil.  Mmmm, mmm.  (i'm not kidding about the
brominated vegetable oil but i am kidding about the USRDA).

>> listen to Stina
>
>Anything new I should know about?
>
>She has a second and third single off And She Closed Her Eyes listed at
>CDE, but of course they can't actually *get* them...

Ah, musical content.  Yah.  Alas, i do not have a new Stina Nordenstam
release;  i'm just listening to the old ones.  (well now i've moved on to
Zazou's Sahara Blue)   There used to be someone on the list who went to
high school with Stina.  Are you still around?  How 'bout giving us the
rumors on new ALBUMS  (i can't afford to buy singles, ).


-cz

bye, e.  I'm leaving you all alone on the list.

___<<<<<<<<<*********ckemnitz@students.wisc.edu********>>>>>>>>>___

"I pass death with the dying, and birth with the new-washed babe. . . . and
am not contained between my hat and boots..."     -Walt Whitman

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:38:15 CST
From: eric (eewittme@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Porcupine Tree: The Sky Moves Sideways


Wow!

I bought this CD today, and it is simply amazing.  I'd describe it as being
in the same vein as "Pygmalion" and "Hex," (at least as far as the mood of
the CD).  There is more electric guitar than I usually care for, but somehow
these guys pull it off.  With track lengths like 18.37, 17.04, and 16.36, I
was a little afraid of repitition, but the entire album flows with a
consistancy unmatched by any CD I've purchased in recent months.

Before I start, let me clarify something.  For the purpose of this review,
electric guitar means one, relatively unaffected guitar.  I'm a really big
dreampop fan, so to give the impression I don't like elec guitar would be
false.

The standout track on the CD is "Dislocated Day," which may be a candidate
for a new "favorite song."  (I put that in quotes because nobody really has
one favorite song.)  Starts out with a ringing telephone, after which music
starts in.  This one is a little louder than the other songs, but keeps the
same slow tempo.  The vocals in this one are very droney, compared to the
rest of the tracks, whose vocals have sort of a Bark Psychosis, FSA feel (except
a
little better).  Strings make the song extra creepy, while the "drums"
have sort of a "tribal feel" to them.  Electric guitar punctuates the song,
getting loud and scary off and on.  Between those moments, Steven Wilson
(who basically is Porcupine Tree), croons "Dislocated day. . .I will find a
way. . .to make you say. . .the name of your forgiver. . ."  Chilling.

Other tracks make use of weird sound loops interspaced between wonderful
elec guitar playing.  Some of the keyboard effects they use also remind me
a little of Spoonfed Hybrid.

Back to the Stephen Wilson thing.  Three of the songs are just him doing all
sorts of cool stuff, while the other three are with a full band.  He writes
five of the six songs on the disc, collaborating on the other.  Does anyone
else have a little info on this band?  Someone else mentioned them awhile
back, but I deleted the message and took note of the name.  Thank you,
whoever you are.

And the packaging is lovely!  Mine says limited edition picture disc, so I
don't know if they're all like that.


And while I'm at it, I'll briefly mention the Half-String CD I got.  It's
good, though not particularly innovative or fresh.  I expected a noise
band, but got a quieter, brooding one.  It is however, one of the better US
dreampop bands I've heard.  Standout track is "Sun Less Sea."
Oh, and it's a compilation of their two singles on IPR, plus three new
songs.  I ordered it through Stinkweeds, though it's easily available
through IPR.

g'night,

eric


erikas@evo.org, last updated by Eyesore Automation on 9-16-1995