4ad-l Mail for 12-08-1994

Mail in Archive

Subject: Deidre and Louise
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:10:30 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4AD/PIAS News
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:18:27 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: subbacultcha
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:32:43 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Head to Toe, In Search of....
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:42:00 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: LISA GERMANO, musical wonder
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:58:43 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Insides Live in London
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:06:39 -0800
From: Andrea Parra (andrea@CSUA.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: HNIA is burning to be in my collection, but which?
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:07:31 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: simple machines hoopla
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 01:21:54 EST
From: "John M. Renfroe 823-5045" (RENFROJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU)
Subject: Re: ...the end is near...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:39:47 -0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: Fields of the Nephilm
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:36:12 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: HNIA is burning to be in my collection, but which?
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:01:06 -0800
From: * kelli-jeanne * (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:02:56 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: a simpler LG question
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:22:57 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: a simpler LG question...NOT
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:28:08 -0800
From: * kelli-jeanne * (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Head to Toe, In Search of....
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:33:46 -0600
From: Kagin Lee (KAGIN%KAGIN.BITNET@JHUVM.HCF.JHU.EDU)
Subject: 13-Yr. Itch video
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:54:28 -0800
From: Delphine Eunice Hwang (delfy@UCLINK2.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: Ambience
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:30:53 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:44:38 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:50:29 +0000
From: Lord Purge (scottyt@DOGBERT.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU)
Subject: Germano "Psychopath" sample
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:15:58 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: COOKIEEES!!!!
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:19:52 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: # printed Slowdive _Blue Day_
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:18:47 +0100
From: Laurent Lapierre (t3_0038@EFP.POZNAN.PL)
Subject: Re: COOKIEEES!!!!
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:28:46 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: And also the trees... French Released
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:47:24 +0100
From: Laurent Lapierre (t3_0038@EFP.POZNAN.PL)
Subject:
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 04:54:10 -0800
From: Brian Lyons (brianlyo@GODFATHER.CYBERQUEST.COM)
Subject: Re: Deidre and Louise
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 08:28:06 -0600
From: kendal obermeyer (kobermey@UNLINFO.UNL.EDU)
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 14:35:12 +0000
From: Mat Diss (matd@SEQUENT.COM)
Subject: Kelley Deal caught with drugs (fwd)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:37:48 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (rcbapa@URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Re: Head to Toe, In Search of....
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:21:53 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (patrick@STACK.URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Re: subbacultcha
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:34:10 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (patrick@STACK.URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:59:27 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:35:14 -0500
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:50:30 +0200
From: David Sorfa (SRFDAV01@UCTVAX.UCT.AC.ZA)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, musical wonder
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:26:58 -0500
From: Susan Curran (susan@ACS.BU.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:38:10 -0500
From: Susan Curran (susan@ACS.BU.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 15:40:58 -0800
From: Juliet_Okeefe@SFU.CA
Subject: Fairytales of Slavery
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 21:41:36 -0500
From: Richard Singer (wk03814@WORLDLINK.COM)
Subject: my bloody valentine lyrics anyone!!!
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:00:29 -0500
From: Brendon Macaraeg (bqm1808@IS.NYU.EDU)
Subject: Jo Wiggs, etc....
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:12:32 -0800
From: Julian Stewart (camus@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:02:00 -0600
From: missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:10:30 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Deidre and Louise


ok kiddies,

finals are almost over and all of my portfolios are in, so i can
actually answer THE 3BILLION LETTERS IN MY MAILBOX... Geez..

anyway, what's up with the Rutowski sisters? i know this is kind of an
anachronistic question, but it is one i have been meaning to ask for a loooong
time.

any current projects? solo stuff? how'd they get hooked up with ivo anyway?

many thanks and heath bar crunch ice cream to you all,
                                        lisa...

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:18:27 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: 4AD/PIAS News


hello there nice kind non argumentative people :P

could someone pretty please re post the info to subscribe to the PIAS news?

     thank you greatly!

                        lisa

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:32:43 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: subbacultcha


SO........

can you guys tell me what this subbacultcha thingy is?

i know the song, the band (heaven bless them) but how do you subscribe,
what's the traffic like, what groups do the almighty regulars permit
to be discussed, or is that list like that?

just out of curiosity, do you guys resent my asking about another list?

you know those of you who argue about EVERY THING alienate us non professional
net users and we don't know just what you would jump down someone's throat for.
I speak for about 8 people on this list.

someone said that they appreciated all the arguing, and while it is good not to
have a brain of like minded music mush heads, and i know none of these folks in
particular will even listen, much less read this lil' note, but oh...
nevermind...this is just venting frustration....

all i want is more pixies lifeblood. thank you. lisa.

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:42:00 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Head to Toe, In Search of....


Christophe wrote of Head to Toe a while ago:

> I know that the original ep is on 10" format, but isn't there any CD including
this track
> anywhere?
>
> Just curious...
>

well, i want it! anyone who would give me some info in obtaining
this Bit o' Breeders will be smothered with kisses from dot warner.
i'll see to it..

if that's a turn-off, then Jessica Wabbit....

                                                lisa

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:58:43 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: LISA GERMANO, musical wonder


several lisa g. things (such a great name, too!).....

        i am so amazed by the new album. i think i had heard something off
        of inconsiderate bitch...i wasn't too impressed, but i sat
        awestruck during track 6. can't even listen to it.Never had it happen
        to me, but i have had friends in that same position. not to be
        bitching about the state of women, but i know so many girls who are
        "geeks". I want to make them listen to this album and make them realize
        how self-destructive it is to think, "well, i like having a boyfriend,
        so i'll put up with whatever he gives me. what crap.. poor things.
        Which makes the entire album even more touching....
        not that there aren't great men out there, i am not taking men to task,
        just the women who let themselves be walked on. the geeks..

        so, can you lisa-crazed folk tell me more? many thanks and good fortune
        cookie fortunes to all who answer...

        also, is the lisa/pale saints tour coming to Houston?

                        i know i went off, but it is a sign of a good album
                        that makes you think and feel so deeply....
                        lisa

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:06:39 -0800
From: Andrea Parra (andrea@CSUA.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: Insides Live in London


This was one of the few gigs that were accessable while I was there (boo hoo,
Portishead!).  They played at a small venue, actually a pub, called the
Russell Arms. This pub must do some amount of small shows; the "performance
area" was a small back room, closed off from the rest of the pub with double
doors, and pasted floor to ceiling with posters of previous shows from... well,
a lot of San Francisco bands, like Local Fellers and others, plus old posters
from Velocity Girl, Pram, etc. That room was probably no bigger than 30
feet by 30 feet, and the ceiling could have been no more than 6 feet tall.

There were three bands altogether, but I only saw Acacia and Insides.  Acacia
are worth seeing, if you like music akin to the jazzier side of Bark Psychosis.
Insides performed all new material, and I have to say they were quite wonderful.
They performed with backing tapes, and also with a live drummer and guitar...
several live instruments at different times, including trumpet, saxaphone,
and flute.  Their music was like cool, effervescent jazz and ambient all
mixed together, with husky female vocals in just the right spot, and their
usual cryptic visuals (if you saw them at the 13 year itch, you'll know what
I mean). Each track was like a mini version of "Clear Skin," a slow, building
melodic amble, with accoustic instruments to keep it more than engaging, and nev
r boring.  I was so GLAD I went, I felt peacefull and content when I left,
like I had had a good massage, and that feeling is very rare.

Insides are no longer with 4AD; they seemed to be "between labels," but I was
told that they do have new material, and intend to release a new EP as soon
as they can.  So, nothing new has come out since "Clear Skin."

Andrea


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:07:31 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: HNIA is burning to be in my collection, but which?


having just gotten my AVAM and hearing some new groups for the first time,
i wholeheartedly agree that library girl is the best! (warm glow from
k-j's side of the net) Anyway INITIATE ME!

i bought Livonia on a whim and a burning desire to understand what the KoS
thingy was about (I know that dosen't make sense, but it was a getting to know
the background sorta thing...) but it dosen't sound like library girl!

i like both, but i like library girl better...or mabye i haven't listened to
Livonia enough?

                                lisa...you knowit's 7 December, and i STILL
                                        have tons of Turkey leftovers..

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 01:21:54 EST
From: "John M. Renfroe 823-5045" (RENFROJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU)
Subject: Re: simple machines hoopla


Hey, which list did you get the Simple Machines info from?  I just received
the live Working Holiday cd and the same stuff just posted.
On Grenadine, I really like the versions on the Christiansen ep better than
the cd.  Warren really outdid himself putting it all together.

matt

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:39:47 -0600
From: cz (ckemnitz@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU)
Subject: Re: ...the end is near...


>  and with the conclusion of another year, comes the year end list of
>  good & bad musical purchases & experiences...

       **Splendorous** is...
1)*Hector Zazou*, Sahara Blue:  i know this came out a long time ago (1992)
but i just bought it this year and wonder how i lived without it.  Anneli,
Brendan, and Lisa appearances are icing on the already sweet arrangements
to the poetry of Rimbaud.
2)*Love Spirals Downwards*, Ardor:  I just bought this a week or two ago
but i'm willing to say it's BETTER than their previous album.
3)*Loreena McKennitt*, The Mask and the Mirror:  She was brilliant in
concert, the albums just keep getting better.  Eastern and Celtic
influences abound and she still likes lyrics from Shakespear (what more
could you ask for?)
4)*Heavenly Voices*, (various artists compiled by Hyperium):  If you can't
tell from this list, i like female voices--and these two discs give 'em to
me.
5)*Love Is Colder Than Death*, Oxeia:  With a name like LICTD it couldn't
get more gothic or longer without them forever being referred to only by an
acronym.  Nevertheless this album surprised me because i was expecting only
slightly more than mediocrity (i got much more).
6)*Mazzy Star*, So Tonight That I Might See:  I always loved Opal but was
severely dissappointed by MS's first album.  This second one turns the
country annoyance of the first album into sultry bliss.  Now stop
overplaying them on the radio!!!! (no-one who is serious about their music
deserves to be overplayed to death)
7)*The Moon Seven Times*, 7=49:  Nice to see Lynn, Henry and company still
producing the stuff dreams are made of.
8)*Stina Nordenstam*, And She Closed Her Eyes:  This has already begun to
creep up on me slowly until i AM Stina (hmmm).  Mellowly delicious.

**Good Listening BUT Not Perfect**--
1)*Dead Can Dance*, Toward The Within:  I guess i expected too much.  This
captures brilliance now and again but the brilliance to length ratio is
less than i'd expect from them.
2)*Sheila Chandra*, The Zen Kiss:  With a programmable CD player this is a
great disk.  Classical Indian meets Celtic meets blissed out female
vocalist extraordinaire.
3) *Graeme Revell*, Musique Brut Collection:  i've ranted and raved too
much about this already.
4)*Breathless*, Heartburst:  I don't normally get compilations but i bought
this one.  I still don't know if it represents the band well but it's nice
to listen to.
5)*Sky Cries Mary*, This Timeless Turning:  I know now that none of their
work will compare to the brilliant psychedelia of "Exit at the Axis" but
this is better than their last album.
6)*A. R. Kane*, New Clear Child:  funky sometimes insipid lyrics with a pop
sensibility that i never knew AR Kane were capable of.

**If i had to do it all over i wouldn't buy these albums, but now that i've
got them i'm not going to sell them either** --
SoulWhirlingSomewhere(EatingTheSea), Single Gun Theory(Flow, River of My
Soul), and AVAM.

**please buy these bad albums from me**--
*spoonfed hybrid*:  i hoped for quirky but got boring instead.
*Sinead O'Connor*, Universal Mother:  all around weak album (what happened
to her?)

Did i really buy that many new albums this year on my graduate student
stipend?  Yikes no wonder my credit card bill is so big.
                                                                        -cz

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:36:12 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Fields of the Nephilm


On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Timothy Edwards wrote:

> For that matter, we've discussed Michael Bolton a few times.
> ; ) (Oh sure, there is a smiley winkey, but we DID discuss him... sort of...)

Indeed we did, and if memory serves I do believe his detractors ducked
out of the argument under heavy fire!

> P.S. einexile, is ambient thislisty?

Perhaps not, but thislisty is becoming ever more ambient...

.....woooossssshhhhhhhh......

 einexile, beep beep, boop boop, beep beep, boop boop, boop boop be doop


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:01:06 -0800
From: * kelli-jeanne * (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: HNIA is burning to be in my collection, but which?


> i wholeheartedly agree that library girl is the best! (warm glow from
> k-j's side of the net) Anyway INITIATE ME!

  stick with me kid...i know what's kool and what isn't...
  :snicker:

> i like both, but i like library girl better...or mabye i haven't listened to
> Livonia enough?

  uh..well, 'library girl' isn't a good representation of the band's
  sound. in fact, if i have my facts straight, that's probably more
  well suited to the his name is arrive sound...fuzzy gurgles with a
  warm glow underneath it all. anyhoo, hnia are perfection if you
  let them be. i first brushed past this group's music when livonia
  came out :wayne's world dreamsequence squiggles:....i took one look
  at the cover and fell in love. i didn't know what to expect of the
  music inside the cd, and i think that's how everyone should approach
  the band's various releases. don't expect anything, and enjoy what
  you get. livonia is a lot of melancholia and disjointment and a sort
  of dissonant way of thinking...both lyrically and musically. i do
  think it takes awhile to get into your head, but it's something one
  grows to love. home is in your head is a masterpiece..a truly
  wonderful recording from start to finish. despite what the band will
  say, most people pick up on a definate theme behind the album...
  clearly a breaking down on various levels..with that strange feeling
  of hope buried deep down. it's acoustic and noisy and quiet..all at
  varying times. the dirt eaters ep & mouth by mouth are more on the
  quirky-accessible side...it's experimentation of a different nature...
  it seems like new ground being broken, but it's not..it doesn't
  feel like it. kinda odd. it can rokk and it can be creepy or touching,
  playful and light, or weird and goofy. if you want some upbeatness
  in your life, buy mouth by mouth and never let it get past track one.
  it's a gem. :) king of sweet is more for the longtime fans..a long
  ebb & flow of various songs and demo-ish material and some hicks saying
  their goodbyes atthe very end {no offense to any hicks on the list}. :)
  hmm..i guess i wrote enough. i'm sure someone else can shed a much
  more coherent viewpoint on the subject...

  *k* ...not the least bit angry with jOHN, btw...

  well, not anymore ;)

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:02:56 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...


On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, lisa the missy pepper wrote:

>         not to be
>         bitching about the state of women, but i know so many girls who are
>         "geeks". I want to make them listen to this album and make them realiz

>         how self-destructive it is to think, "well, i like having a boyfriend,
>         so i'll put up with whatever he gives me. what crap.. poor things.

>         not that there aren't great men out there, i am not taking men to task

>         just the women who let themselves be walked on. the geeks..

I finally found myself a copy of this album and have been meaning to
comment on it but I need to listen to it more before doing so. For now,
as far as its quality is concerned I will just say that at this point I
think it is the best 4AD release since that great day of 23 october 1993
when Euphoria and Spoonfed Hybrid came out. It is a brilliant, instense,
awe-imspiringly original album, and I love it. I also think these are the
best vocals since Bel Canto's Shimmering, Warm and Bright.

HOWEVER...

This said, I am disturbed by the use of the sample in this song
Psychopath (I think we're talking about the same track, here?). If I
remember correctly, the woman in that recording was neither raped nor
stalked nor mistreated by her boyfriend, but rather murdered and robbed
by a total stranger. That memory is very vague, though, and I'd
appreciate someone clearing it up for me. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if
not, I'd find it pretty sick that it would be misused that way. As it is
now it kind of ruins the album for me knowing that someone's murder was
misrepresented in order to make a point.

(Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about and doesn't think I'm
being sarcastic, in the liner notes it says "fuck off and die to all
rapists and stalkers".)


 einexile


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:22:57 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: a simpler LG question


In the notes, an "italian folk tine called frascilita cry woolf,
co-written with jay joyce" is mentioned. Is this an actual pre-existing
song which Lisa Germano took half-credit for after incorporating it into
her own work, or an actual collaboration? Her publishing info isn't
applied to that song...so I'm confused as to whether it's the little
quick piece that appears three times in the course of the album, or just
track 8, Phantom Love, minus the drum track? Or something else?

Sorry to everyone to whom I owe personal mail...

 einexile
(All who deny the infallible greatness of Monster will pay dearly!)

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:28:08 -0800
From: * kelli-jeanne * (kelli@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: a simpler LG question...NOT


> Sorry to everyone to whom I owe personal mail...

  no apologies, buddy.

> (All who deny the infallible greatness of Monster will pay dearly!)

  bahahahaha. cueball stipe and the other three dudes in that group
  can take their monster and stick it where it belongs....

  phffbbt, *k* ..sole member of the kelliRC...

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:33:46 -0600
From: Kagin Lee (KAGIN%KAGIN.BITNET@JHUVM.HCF.JHU.EDU)
Subject: Re: Head to Toe, In Search of....


lisa the missy pepper wrote:
> > I know that the original ep is on 10" format, but isn't there any CD includi
g this track
> > anywhere?
> >
> > Just curious...
> >
> well, i want it! anyone who would give me some info in obtaining
> this Bit o' Breeders will be smothered with kisses from dot warner.
> i'll see to it..

Here in the u.s. (yes, even in the south) it's on a green 7" record
 released by elektra.  Seen at independent record stores for $7 - $10
 and at one chain store for $3.50.  Good thing i got mine free.

kagin
kagin@tyrell.net

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:54:28 -0800
From: Delphine Eunice Hwang (delfy@UCLINK2.BERKELEY.EDU)
Subject: 13-Yr. Itch video


I know, I know, this was released a long time ago, but I still can't find
it anywhere.  Is there anyone out there who has it who would be willing to
tell me more about this video compilation with RHP's "24" on it?  Please
write to me, whoever has it.  If your willing to sell it, I'm willing to
buy.  But since I know you are all probably 4AD die-hards, just please
write to me about it.
        Also, please respond to me by personal e-mail, not through the list.
        Thank you.

                                                Delphine


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:30:53 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: Ambience

              94 10:36:12 pm

vilexile  wrote:
>
> > P.S. einexile, is ambient thislisty?
>
> Perhaps not, but thislisty is becoming ever more ambient...
>

The Irresistible Force's "Global Chillage" is a fine ambient album with
one of the grooviest covers I have ever seen - I spent most of one
evening staring at it and I was only under the influence of Ruddles
County bitter.  A bit like "Ultraworld" era Orb, before they disappeared
up their own arseholes.  (The Irresistible Force also did a splendid
remix of Stump's "Charlton Heston" about eight years ago, but I doubt
that Mixmaster Morris (crap name or what?) would like to be reminded of
that nowadays).

--
Andrew Norman, Leicester, England | Jedermann sein eigner Fussball
nja@le.ac.uk                      |

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:44:38 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...

              94 00:02:56 am

vilexile  wrote:

[Praise for "Geek the Girl"]
>
> This said, I am disturbed by the use of the sample in this song
> Psychopath (I think we're talking about the same track, here?). If I
> remember correctly, the woman in that recording was neither raped nor
> stalked nor mistreated by her boyfriend, but rather murdered and robbed
> by a total stranger. That memory is very vague, though, and I'd
> appreciate someone clearing it up for me. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if
> not, I'd find it pretty sick that it would be misused that way. As it
> is now it kind of ruins the album for me knowing that someone's murder
> was misrepresented in order to make a point.
>

I was rather disturbed by this track when I heard the album - if it *is*
a genuine recording, even "just" of a stalker, it troubles me that LG
would include it on an album which is basically entertainment
(entertainment with a point, but still entertainment).  It's a powerful
song, all the more so for being so low-key, but I'd be very unhappy to
hear that einexile is right about the source of the tape.

> In the notes, an "italian folk tine called frascilita cry woolf,
> co-written with jay joyce" is mentioned. Is this an actual pre-existing
> song which Lisa Germano took half-credit for after incorporating it
> into her own work, or an actual collaboration? Her publishing info
> isn't applied to that song...so I'm confused as to whether it's the
> little quick piece that appears three times in the course of the album,
> or just track 8, Phantom Love, minus the drum track? Or something
> else?

I assumed "Frascilita" was the little plinky-plonky folky tune which
pops up throughout the album, and "Cry Wolf" was the co-written song.

> einexile (All who deny the infallible greatness of Monster will pay
> dearly!)

Oh dear.  I like some of the songs on "Monster", but it's REM's worst
album by a long chalk to my ears.


Andrew Norman, Leicester, England | Jedermann sein eigner Fussball
nja@le.ac.uk                      |

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:50:29 +0000
From: Lord Purge (scottyt@DOGBERT.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees


"Neil G."  writes:

>list, but their is someone using the pseudonym 'Order and Method'.  He
>has the complete discography including 12"'s which I never knew
>existed.  If you put a request on alt.gothic (which I know he posts
>to) you may get opinions on AATT that would be better to go by.

I have a copy of this discography (at least the version from a few months
ago) up on my homepage....    http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~scottyt
Poke about and you'll find it... Actually if you don't mind, I would
love to include some of your posting on my page... (let me know if that's
a problem). I believe that fernando is the individual who goes by
"order and method".  He (F) is working on an AATT homepage (official
or unofficial I don't know).  So when that comes around I will post
the site.

>PS Apologies for going of like this, could not help myself.

but they are wonderful, and your behavior is completely understandable.
I will not hazard to guess my favorite album since I have no clue...
It changes all the time.  But I will say that if I have to pick cds
to go somewhere with me and my discman, there is almost always
an AATT album involved (and cindytalk for that matter).

purge!
--
\ \  and with arms stretched out...           \ \
 \ \      caught the sun in cold cupped hands  \ \

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:15:58 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Germano "Psychopath" sample


On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, A.J. Norman wrote:

> I was rather disturbed by this track when I heard the album - if it *is*
> a genuine recording, even "just" of a stalker, it troubles me that LG
> would include it on an album which is basically entertainment
> (entertainment with a point, but still entertainment).  It's a powerful
> song, all the more so for being so low-key, but I'd be very unhappy to
> hear that einexile is right about the source of the tape.

This is a good point, which I personally agree with but it's a hard case
to make to a lot of people that this art doesn't have some deeper purpose
(i.e. as a means to control people without convincing them through a
process of reason). I do know for a fact that it was a real 911 recording
of an incident which I think happened in Los Angeles around 2 years ago.
They played it on the news when it happened and I recognised it
immediately when I heard it on this album. Listening to it further,
regardless the nature of the crime (i had focussed on the Enchanted
Crimes mentioned in the liner notes and thought, "what about murder?
doesn't that matter anymore?"), you still have the fact that the song is
either a real or imagined statement made from the narrator to an
acquaintance, while in the recording a real, live, terrified woman is
screaming, "who are you?". You're right that, regardless all this, it is a
little too serious even for a very serious album, but the fact of
someone's real-life horrors being used for spooky ambience on a rock
record, in any context other than a purposeful song about the actual
event...I cannot look past that. I think it is in very poor taste.

 einexile


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:19:52 -0800
From: vilexile (einexile@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: COOKIEEES!!!!


Andrew Norman, Leicester, England, wrote:


> > einexile (All who deny the infallible greatness of Monster will pay
> > dearly!)

> Oh dear.  I like some of the songs on "Monster", but it's REM's worst
> album by a long chalk to my ears.

I have to admit I'm coming from the standpoint of someone who more or
less hates REM except for this album and Out of Time. ("Low" *R00LZ*.)

> | Jedermann sein eigner Fussball

I've always wanted to know what this means...?


 elixenie

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:18:47 +0100
From: Laurent Lapierre (t3_0038@EFP.POZNAN.PL)
Subject: # printed Slowdive _Blue Day_


Anyone knows the # of CD printed for Slowdive _Blue Day_ (really limited ed?)
and Slowdive _Soulvlaki_ last released album in the "Limited Ed." (CRE 139x)
pack 2CD containing Blue Day ?\

Thanks>
Laurent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Laurent Lapierre               Mobile radio communication student
                                             lapier_l@int-evry.fr
-----------------------------------------------------------------
' 'Imagine'... that you're happy now. It's easy if you try
 -because we're all cought in a mortifying loop - LIFE. '      Matt Jonhson

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:28:46 +0000
From: "A.J. Norman" (nja@LEICESTER.AC.UK)
Subject: Re: COOKIEEES!!!!

              94 02:19:52 am

vilexile  wrote:
>
> > | Jedermann sein eigner Fussball
>
> I've always wanted to know what this means...?
>

It's the title of a German dada magazine (from the twenties, Grosz,
Huelsenbeck & co, I think), and means "Everyman his own football".

--
Andrew Norman, Leicester, England | Jedermann sein eigner Fussball
nja@le.ac.uk                      |

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:47:24 +0100
From: Laurent Lapierre (t3_0038@EFP.POZNAN.PL)
Subject: And also the trees... French Released


--------
I think that their is also another compilation album around.
I hope this all helps, somehow I think I may have added to the
confusion.  However, they are a very good band and you shouldn't go
wrong with any of their albums.

    Neil
---------

Maybe you're speaking about AATT _Et aussi les arbres_ (Ob french
translation of the name of the band) released in France as Arty01

(Arty01 is so the first released of the french label Lively Art. I think it's
only a vinyl released, and I've never seen it anywhere. A good friend of
mine - you can have infos on Lively Art on his WWW pages:


- told me that it was only a compilation of  previous tracks/albums ?
 never released in France...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Laurent Lapierre               Mobile radio communication student
                                             lapier_l@int-evry.fr
-----------------------------------------------------------------
' 'Imagine'... that you're happy now. It's easy if you try
 -because we're all cought in a mortifying loop - LIFE. '      Matt Jonhson


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 04:54:10 -0800
From: Brian Lyons (brianlyo@GODFATHER.CYBERQUEST.COM) Hello, can anyone tell me if the 13 year itch cd and video are available anywhere? How much should I expect to pay for each of these items? Also how much would you estimate the current price for the drugs/come here my love 10" would be? Thanks for any help, Brian.

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 08:28:06 -0600
From: kendal obermeyer (kobermey@UNLINFO.UNL.EDU)
Subject: Re: Deidre and Louise

              at Dec 7, 94 11:10:30 pm

>
> ok kiddies,
>
> finals are almost over and all of my portfolios are in, so i can
> actually answer THE 3BILLION LETTERS IN MY MAILBOX... Geez..
>
> anyway, what's up with the Rutowski sisters? i know this is kind of an
> anachronistic question, but it is one i have been meaning to ask for a loooong
> time.
>
> any current projects? solo stuff? how'd they get hooked up with ivo anyway?
>
> many thanks and heath bar crunch ice cream to you all,
>                                         lisa...
>               GOOD QUESTION! WISH I KNEW! I'M STAYING SUBSCRIBED
     JUST TO FIND OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                Kendal and her annoying capslock
                                kobermey@unlinfo.unl.edu

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 14:35:12 +0000
From: Mat Diss (matd@SEQUENT.COM)
Subject: Re: your mail

              Dec 8, 94 04:54:10 am

Not sure if you're in the UK, but if you are, I found a copy in
Resurrection Records in Camden on Saturday...
>
>  Hello, can anyone tell me if the 13 year itch cd and video are available
> anywhere? How much should I expect to pay for each of these items? Also
> how much would you estimate the current price for the drugs/come here my
> love 10" would be? Thanks for any help, Brian.
>


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:37:48 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (rcbapa@URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Kelley Deal caught with drugs (fwd)


>From the Subbacultcha list:

Forwarded message:

> Some bad news Breeders fans...
>
> MTV reported:
>
> Kelley Deal was charged last week in the USA with possession of heroin.
> The conviction of the drug charge carries a possible 5 year jail sentence.
> The band's record label (4AD?, Polygram?) has no comment at this time.
>
> So guys, what do you think?  Do you think Kelley will get off the hook?
> What happened to other music celebrities in her position?  Did they go
> to jail too?  What's gonna happen?  I guess we're gonna have to wait and
> see...
>
---PAtrick---

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
 Patrick Asselman  | "Jesus said: In heaven there's not that much to do"
 rcbapa@urc.tue.nl |                    Throwing Muses
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:21:53 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (patrick@STACK.URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Re: Head to Toe, In Search of....

              Dec 8, 94 02:33:46 am

> lisa the missy pepper wrote:
> > > I know that the original ep is on 10" format, but isn't there any CD inclu
ing this track
> > > anywhere?
> > >
> > > Just curious...
> > >
> > well, i want it! anyone who would give me some info in obtaining
> > this Bit o' Breeders will be smothered with kisses from dot warner.
> > i'll see to it..
>
> Here in the u.s. (yes, even in the south) it's on a green 7" record
>  released by elektra.  Seen at independent record stores for $7 - $10
>  and at one chain store for $3.50.  Good thing i got mine free.
>
There's also a 10" record that contains a version of Saints that isn't
listed on the cover.
But this record hasn't got the nice green color of the 7".

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:34:10 +0100
From: Patrick Asselman (patrick@STACK.URC.TUE.NL)
Subject: Re: subbacultcha

              pepper" at Dec 7, 94 11:32:43 pm

>
> SO........
>
> can you guys tell me what this subbacultcha thingy is?
>
> i know the song, the band (heaven bless them) but how do you subscribe,
> what's the traffic like, what groups do the almighty regulars permit
> to be discussed, or is that list like that?
>
Sorry about the codes, but I'm sure you son't mind...

About Subbacultcha...


Subbacultcha is probably best known by you as a title of a Pixies song of the al um "Trompe le monde" ("This is a song about something there...") But apart from that, it is also the name of a mailing list. The purpose of this list is to hold discussions on the following bands:
  • Throwing Muses
  • Pixies
  • The Breeders
  • Belly
  • Frank Black
  • Kristin Hersh
These bands are all signed under the 4AD label, recognisable by the label that y u see here.

For more information on 4AD, consult the 4AD WWW pages. And no, the Subbacultcha page nor mailinglist are sponsored or supported in any ay (except by good background music while working :-) by the 4AD label. The mailing list was founded Dec 2nd 1993 by Martin Lacasse.


How to use the Subbacultcha mailing list?


The mailing list ID is: subbacultcha@cs.mcgill.ca When you send your messages to this ID, a program will automatically copy this message to all the members of the Mailing List.

When replying to a message from the mailing list, make sure that the mailing list ID is part of your 'TO:' or 'CC:' field. Otherwise other members of the mailing list will not see your reply.

The ID: listserv@cs.mcgill.ca are messages that go to the mailing list keeper personally. Use this ID to SUBSCRIBE & UNSUBSCRIBE. Please do not send unsubscribe requests to subbacultcha@cs.mcgill.ca, people from all over the world will be seeing your request, and don't be surprised if they start 'flaming' you.

PS. Write 'subscribe subbacultcha' or 'unsubscribe subbacultcha' in the message body, (and in the subject field for fun if you like), when mailing listserv@cs.mcgill.ca for such request.

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:59:27 -0600
From: lisa the missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...


einexile wrote:

> I finally found myself a copy of this album and have been meaning to
> comment on it but I need to listen to it more before doing so. For now,
> as far as its quality is concerned I will just say that at this point I
> think it is the best 4AD release since that great day of 23 october 1993
> when Euphoria and Spoonfed Hybrid came out. It is a brilliant, instense,
> awe-imspiringly original album, and I love it. I also think these are the
> best vocals since Bel Canto's Shimmering, Warm and Bright.
>
> HOWEVER...
>
> This said, I am disturbed by the use of the sample in this song
> Psychopath (I think we're talking about the same track, here?). If I
> remember correctly, the woman in that recording was neither raped nor
> stalked nor mistreated by her boyfriend, but rather murdered and robbed
> by a total stranger. That memory is very vague, though, and I'd
> appreciate someone clearing it up for me. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if
> not, I'd find it pretty sick that it would be misused that way. As it is
> now it kind of ruins the album for me knowing that someone's murder was
> misrepresented in order to make a point.
>
> (Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about and doesn't think I'm
> being sarcastic, in the liner notes it says "fuck off and die to all
> rapists and stalkers".)


I completely agree. i was driving along in my car, and i almost hit somebody
cause i wasn't paying attention! i was so awestruck.....

i had no idea that there is a possibility that lisa misused it.
while it dosen't bother me so much as you, it does make one wonder..
i would think, if the sample was misused, it would be better (read: easier
to listen to) than an actual sample of a murder/rape. and seeing as we are
talking about ART here, i think that the sample meets its artistic purpose.
I know I sure was disturbed by it, weren't you? and isn't that the point?

I know what you are saying, and i agree to an extent, but this is art in
musical form... i am sure that a rape victim wouldn't want a recording of the
incident on a major label release, and the sample definitely serves its
purpose, n'est pas?

                lisa, who appreciates the intelligent conversation for once!
                                merci!


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:35:14 -0500
From: Another Reason to Cut Off an Ear (ICEBLINK@DELPHI.COM)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...


Well, not to be name-dropping or anything....but I have an aquaintance
who will be spending some time with Ms. Germano in the near future.  I'd
be happy to ask where, exactly, she got the sample and what her intentions
is/are/were. In case anyone wants to know.

I've been curious about it myself.


Mike


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:50:30 +0200
From: David Sorfa (SRFDAV01@UCTVAX.UCT.AC.ZA)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees

              06 Dec 1994 13:31:59 -0500" <01HKC49OI6IQBDJM6N@uctvax.uct.ac.za>

virus meadow


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:26:58 -0500
From: Susan Curran (susan@ACS.BU.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, musical wonder

              at Dec 7, 94 11:58:43 pm

>         to me, but i have had friends in that same position. not to be
>         bitching about the state of women, but i know so many girls who are
>         "geeks". I want to make them listen to this album and make them
>         realize how self-destructive it is. not that there aren't great men
>         out there, i am not taking men to task, just the women who let
>         themselves be walked on. the geeks..

interesting that you say that because at her show in boston last night, lisa
said something to the effect of: "someone told me that this was my man-hating
album. are there any lines about hating men on the album?" some guy in the
audience yelled out, "you're just mad at them" and she responded, "no, i'm mad
at me" her anger isn't just directed at men, but at the women and others who
perpetuate destructive cycles and destructive relationships, not to mention
herself for letting herself be walked upon.

>         also, is the lisa/pale saints tour coming to Houston?

i think the saints have gone home, and lisa's just doing a few more dates here
before she heads to europe in january.

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 16:38:10 -0500
From: Susan Curran (susan@ACS.BU.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...

              94 00:02:56 am

> This said, I am disturbed by the use of the sample in this song
> Psychopath (I think we're talking about the same track, here?). If I
> remember correctly, the woman in that recording was neither raped nor
> stalked nor mistreated by her boyfriend, but rather murdered and robbed
> by a total stranger. That memory is very vague, though, and I'd
> appreciate someone clearing it up for me. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if
> not, I'd find it pretty sick that it would be misused that way. As it is
> now it kind of ruins the album for me knowing that someone's murder was
> misrepresented in order to make a point.

Well, I think that's part of the point - you're -supposed- to be disturbed by
it certainly, although what you're talking about is something else entirely.
I don't know what you mean by saying that this woman's death/rape was
misrepresented. Lisa used the sample in order to make a point, and she
certainly doesn't take such things lightly. It's chilling, harrowing and
speaks tomes about the state of women, the state of society, and even the
state of the police department/911 staff that didn't take this victim
seriously until it was too late. Lisa doesn't take stalkers lightly; she was
stalked herself, and the sample says everything she's trying to say, and more,
since it is real. It may be under the guise of "entertainment" to use the term
ambiguously, but it's certainly not entertaining, nor is it meant to be. I
don't think she belittles the incident in any way - she's simply trying to
raise people's awareness because things like that and Kitty Genovese don't
have to happen.


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 15:40:58 -0800
From: Juliet_Okeefe@SFU.CA
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...


Susan Curran said:

>Well, I think that's part of the point - you're -supposed- to be disturbed by
>it certainly, although what you're talking about is something else entirely.
>I don't know what you mean by saying that this woman's death/rape was
>misrepresented. Lisa used the sample in order to make a point, and she
>certainly doesn't take such things lightly. It's chilling, harrowing and
>speaks tomes about the state of women, the state of society, and even the
>state of the police department/911 staff that didn't take this victim
>seriously until it was too late. Lisa doesn't take stalkers lightly; she was
>stalked herself, and the sample says everything she's trying to say, and more,
>since it is real. It may be under the guise of "entertainment" to use the term
>ambiguously, but it's certainly not entertaining, nor is it meant to be. I
>don't think she belittles the incident in any way - she's simply trying to
>raise people's awareness because things like that and Kitty Genovese don't
>have to happen.

I have to disagree, and disagree strongly. I think the use of that sample
shows a fantastic lack of thought and consideration. I heard the
original tape on the news a few years back and was shaken to my bones.
I don't think that it matters that Germano takes such things seriously (and

I believe that she does); but using that tape is bad judgement. In a piece
of
highly serious art, it would be provocative enough, but in this context
the use of that sample contributes to the trivialization of violence
against women instead of acting as a statement against it. If Lisa
Germano wanted the voice of a terrified woman on her album,
fine, let her go into the studio and scream herself hoarse. I'm glad
that I'm not the sister or mother of the woman on the tape and I
think that Germano made a bad misstep here.

'tis the season to rant.

Juliet (who, once she accepted that Brendan's songs on Toward
the Within were not DCD songs but Brendan Perry songs, fell
headlong, madly, passionately in love with them)
________________________________________________
okeefe@sfu.ca +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Just a working girl/dreams and disapointments..." - Moonshake


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 21:41:36 -0500
From: Richard Singer (wk03814@WORLDLINK.COM)
Subject: Fairytales of Slavery


I finally picked up this album (tape, in my case) by Miranda Sex Garden,
and I want to say, I do like it!  In fact, I haven't enjoyed a
real rock group this much all year.  (I don't think I can count DCD as a
"real rock group," and everything else I've enjoyed lately has been
either ambient, trance or some East-Asian or North African kind
of world music.)  Anyway, how do I describe Miranda Sex Garden?
The comparisons that I've repeated before don't really
fit.  There are moments that remind me of Lush and/or
Kate Bush . . .  Yet other moments contain a utensil-bashing
abandon more reminiscent of '68 Pink Floyd or '78 Swell Maps.
Overall, this is a very original mix of hard music, etherial vocals,
Gothic moodiness and amusing experimental free-for-all.

If there's any reservation I have about this recording, it has to do
with the lyrics.  Sometimes, I like the dreaminess in them, but other
times they seem pretentiously bleak.  But it's hard to tell how
seriously they were intended in the context of everything else that's
going on . . .

Yet even if there are no poets in this group, they have made some very
enjoyable music.  Let me say thanks to those who recommended it!

-- Richard Singer

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:00:29 -0500
From: Brendon Macaraeg (bqm1808@IS.NYU.EDU)
Subject: my bloody valentine lyrics anyone!!!


Hey all:

A couple of months ago, I posted to the list two or three MBV lyrics. I got
them off of alt.music.alternative, and alas, I need them again since I am
working on a hypercard stack about MBV.

If anyone has these or knows of an FTP site with them, PLEASE EMAIL THEM TO
ME! Or send me the ftp site address!

Many thanks,
--Brendon
===========================================================
Brendon Macaraeg
bqm1808@is.nyu.edu,     72241.1735@compuserve.com,    brendon355@aol.com
                                     Writer/Editor of DREAMPOP:
             http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~student/brendonm/bmmhp.html
                       I_ID      C O F F E E~A C H I E V E R~         I_ID
============================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:12:32 -0800
From: Julian Stewart (camus@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Jo Wiggs, etc....


> Was Josephine in any other bands before the Breeders

Yes, for a long time she was the bassist for The Perfect Disaster. Good stuff.

Hmmm...I'm gonna ramble a bit:

Underrated "this-listy" bands:

1) Jazz Butcher/Jazz Butcher Conspiracy: Just picked up "Waiting for the
        Love Bus" the other day. Pat Fish is an _amazing_ songwriter.   And
        anybody who covers "Everybody's Talking" gets brownie points :)

2) Nick Drake: Everbody needs to own a copy of "Five Leaves Left." These are
        incredibly powerful songs...no doubt in my mind that Ivo would attempt
        to sign him were he still alive. Heidi Berry's male counterpart....



-julian-


Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:02:00 -0600
From: missy pepper (ST5C0@JETSON.UH.EDU)
Subject: Re: LISA GERMANO, say it isn't so...


> In a piece of highly serious art, it would be provocative enough, but in
 this context the use of that sample contributes to the trivialization of
 violence against women instead of acting as a statement against it.

I don't think i understand what you are saying. How is music not a piece
of "highly serious art"? Surely Karen Findley and Nigel Roth would disagree
with you. What was Bach? Not that i am comparing LG to Bach, i am merely
showing how music can be "highly serious art".  Just because you buy it
in a store (big or small)  dosen't trivialize its meaning..
And even if it was true that music isnt highly serious art, mabye that is
what LG is striving for. How can you say music is inferior to, say,
painting as an art form? mabye i am misunderstanding your "context".

And just how in the world, after listening to that album can you
possibly infer that LG is "contribut(ing) to the trivialization of women?
Are youtaking the liner notes seriously? i don't understand, please
expand your argument!

                        lisa, who admittedly does have a tendency toward
                              'art' soapboxes, cause she's a graphics gal


erikas@evo.org, last updated by Eyesore Automation on 12-8-1994